Hi. Testing. Testing. One, two, three. Testing. >> One, two, three. Testing. Testing. advisory committee. So it uh um I'm really um glad to have everyone here and we have quorum. So we will start with the meeting. Just before we get started, I'm just going to do just to check who's in um just to verify that we have it. So, councelor Craasar is sensor um Cameron Croach is not here. Councelor Alex Wilson is here. Ian, nope. >> Is Ian? Oh, there's Ian. Okay, thank you. I'm here. Bye. Nope. Jordan, I didn't see Jordan. >> Uh Juliana, Jeff, Hardy, Sue, Jesse. No, Jesse online. No. Um, Luchia is here. Adichia. >> Okay. Zach isn't here. Frank is here. Tristan, no. Shelley here. And Mary Ellen is here as well. Okay. Did I miss anyone who is here from the climate change advisory committee? No. Okay. Perfect. So I will do the land acknowledgements next. Oh, just a reminder if anyone does have the electron or for electronic devices if you can just turn it to s silent mode for the meeting that would be great as well please. And then for meetings on for folks online oh are you hearing a bit of an echo online? Okay let's see it's muted maybe. No, muted here. Okay, Katherine, do you still hear it? Is there still an echo? >> Audio is fine. >> Sorry. Yeah. Oh god. Yeah, I'm trying to >> Is it my >> Does anyone else hear an echo? >> No. No. >> Just because you have two windows. >> Okay. I think it might be on your end, Katherine. You might want to just check where uh it's getting its audio from. So we'll just do the land acknowledgements. Um the city of Hamilton is situated upon upon the traditional territories of the Eerie neutral Huron Wendat Hodnoson and Missagas. This land is covered by the dish with one spoon wampom belt covenant which was an agreement between the Hodnoson and the Anesa to share and care for the resources around the Great Lakes. We further acknowledge that this land is covered by the between the lakes purchase of 1792 between the crown and the missagas of the credit first nation. Today, the city of Hamilton is home to many indigenous people from across Turtle Island. And we recognize that we must do more to learn about the rich history of this land so we can take better understand our role as residents, neighbors, partners, and caretakers of this beautiful land that we are graced with. So, I'm going to just move on to agenda item the approval of the agenda item. Um, I was just wondering if there's any amendments from the committee members to the agenda. Not seeing any changes to the agenda. Um, then if I can ask for a mover. Sue and Luchia. And are there any um are is there any um of anyone opposed to the passing of the agenda? No. And if for folks who can approve it, if you could just throw your hand up, that would be great. Seeing no opposition, then that motion is carried. Um are there any declaration? Agenda item number four, declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of of interest that people want to um raise online? Seeing nothing online. Seeing nothing in the room. Um then we seeing none, we will move on. Um then the item number five is approval of the minutes of previous meetings. So the last meeting was the June 23rd meeting. Um are there any discussion related to the meeting minutes? Not seeing anything online. Not seeing anything in the room. Um then if we can get a mover and a seconder luchia for the mover, a seconder Shelly and I think um anyone opposed to the meeting notes? Seeing no opposition approval, if folks can just raise their hand for the meeting notes. Seems that one is carried and move we move on. So item number six is the delegations. We don't have any delegations on the agenda for today. So we'll move on to the office of climate change initiatives um item and we have a presentation from Robert Wagner from the city of Hamilton on the battery equipment pilot project. Robert, if I can ask it to turn it over to you just to introduce yourself and then um share your presentation, that would be great. >> All right, sounds great. Yeah, thank you for having me, folks. Um my name is Rob Wagner, manager of business programs in the environmental services division. Um so we did a little not a little, we did a a pilot project on battery equipment. We I'll just get to it and then if there's any questions, happily happily take them. So I haven't shared with WebEx in a while. So, let's see if this how this goes. >> Rob, I have the slides. Do you want me to put them up? >> Um, we can see if I could do it, but let's see what happens. >> What are you folks seeing? The presentation >> or you see my speakers notes? >> It's loading up. It's It's up now. >> And it's fine if you see my notes. If that's what you see. You see just the presentation. >> We don't see your notes. We just see the presentation. >> All right. Nice. Okay. Awesome. So, um yeah, here I'm here today to present the uh some information about our battery battery equipment pilot project. So, is it going there? We go. All right. So over the operating seasons of 2024 and 2025, we um purchased a bunch of battery powered equipment to test out in the field. So the environmental services division has evaluated battery powered landscaping grounds maintenance equipment. So this is professional grade stuff there. You'll see stuff at the various hardware stores, but this is like the professional grade. So it's sort of a step above. Um over the past decade, we've toyed with things. We've tried different things as technologies evolved. But after the declaration of the climate crisis and significant advancements in battery technology, we decided to undertake a comprehensive pilot project during 20 the 2024 and 2025 operating seasons. So we purchased multiple professional-grade battery powered equipment platforms. We procured and tested under real operating conditions. We wanted to see all seasons with all the teams um see how how it went. The pilot was designed to evaluate equipment performance, battery runtime, reliability, operator satisfaction, environmental benefits, and operational sustainability compared to the equivalent, uh, internal combustion powered equipment. So, uh, everybody who used the equipment had to fill out a survey and the survey results demonstrated strong operator acceptance in such areas as noise reduction. They found it easy to use. um they appreciated the environmental conditions and also identifying some issues with regards to battery life, durability and output. The uh the pilot did confirm that battery powered equipment can be successfully deployed in specific and um operational settings while there's still a need for some conventional internal combustion powered equipment and just it's required to get our our work done. So all over the place here. Here we go. But you don't want that. All right, next slide. So, um, the environmental services division utilizes a variety of small equipment to support like environmental services as parks, forestry, horiculture, and cemetery operations. So, again, over the past decade, we've we've bought one-off pieces here and there and tried it with some limited success. So what we and we've monitored and tested that battery powered equipment but uh recent advancements as I said coupled with the climate emergency we decided to to get the bundles of things the bundles of uh commercially available professional grade battery powered equipment. Um sorry my this is kind of keep jumping for me here. All right. So, what we did, we did the things we evaluated were performance. We wanted to see it was able to complete the necessary work. When our folks are out there doing things like cutting trees and cutting grass in all conditions, it has to sort of keep up with the work. We we don't have a lot of slack in our operating um schedules. Like when we're on like a seven day, seven business day cutting cycle and if we lose time, we're already thin on staff and resources. So it has to keep up. So we wanted to know is it going to work? Is the runtime enough to keep going? Um is it reliable and functional? Can the operators use it? Do they like it? And of course the environmental benefits. So um some of the data came back. These are all high-coring things. They found it good for working. They the batteries were ready to go. They ver needed virtually no training on how to do it. They found the controls easy. all scoring in the high 90s. But an issue that kept coming up was that one battery charge wasn't sufficient. So a little more than half the time. So if they were out doing something like trimming a fence line or cutting a bunch of trees or like fallen trees and branches, it wasn't quite enough. So the frequently reported cha um operating charges, battery life concerns about half the time, uh power loss or slowdown about a third of the time they found it was insufficient. There is a difference in some of the equipment, the larger chainsaws for example, the torque that's provided from the internal combustion engine chainsaws, it has a little more giddy up. It gets it gets the job done quicker than the ch the battery stuff. But there was the flip side. They did find that the smaller chainsaws were actually better for the little jobs like smaller caliber caliber cuts. So, um that's something that came out of it. But again, durability concerns that they found that they needed to swap the batteries out. And I'll show later on in a couple slides like there's it's a big cost difference with the batteries. uh power and performance. So again the 53% worse than the batteries are 53% worse than um IC powered tools. So again, operator satisfaction generally quite high, easy to operate, easy to handle, less vibrations, um, and just improved working conditions. And of course, the benefits, the reduced noise, the emissions, less fuel consumption, just supporting our climate goals, but the financial considerations is a large hurdle. So the battery equipment has a significantly higher upfront cost. Additional batteries um significantly increase things and the cost premiums varies by equipment type. Blowers and trimmers show the largest increase. And I have some some pricing. So a typical So we have um standardization at the city for our chainsaws and we use steel or steel or however you want to pronounce it. Um the city pays about $800 for a sorry combustion one. uh the blowers and trimmers, 300 and change, 400 and change. But for the comparable battery equipment, like when you include all in with the battery and charger, um nearly a,000 for the chainsaw, 800 for the blower, and 900 for the trimmer. And that's just for a single battery. And then if we we because we found the batteries didn't work the full shift and needing a second battery, you'll see the cost here. like this the cost for a second battery, how it really really jacks up the the price and again on limited budgets. And so for some perspective um environmental services between the all the groups we have, 1200 pieces of small equipment. So between all the yards and all the groups like forestry, horiculture, parks and cemeteries, there's 1,200 pieces of small equipment, chainsaws, wedies, blowers. So when you extrapolate this cost over that um it would just be it's quite significant but the overall assessment battery equipment is suitable for many municipal operations uh performance has significantly improved over since we first started sort of toying with the battery equipment runtime uh and power remain the limitations. So, another really quick example, the the trimmers. It's actually pretty great. And we often have like students working on the trimmers, so it' be easier if they just had to go out with the battery powered equipment, but it doesn't last the whole day. And our trim crews work as such that they they travel, they'll hit like three to six sites sort of thing every day, hop off the truck, and uh just get to work. And that's the mobile cruise. Some larger parks, something like the driving park or Bayrint Park has staff there all the time. So that that it could be used there. But um the the vast majority of our parks are serviced by these mobile crews and we the amount of batteries we need like if every worker needed two or three batteries and if we had to leave two more batteries if they needed two batteries left in the yard to charge for the next day. So you saw the price of the batteries was so high that would be like say two to four batteries for every worker and it still wouldn't quite it would just barely be enough. So the cost is like really really cost prohibitive at this time. Um people equipment is still needed for the higher demand tasks. Again like the really thick trees need the IC chainsaws. Um but we were totally open to a hybrid approach. Um like continuing to keep bringing things in. Again small chainsaws, pole saws, the staff actually liked those. They preferred them to the combustion engine powered units. And it's I think it's pretty down the middle in terms of things like the blowers and trimmers that it doesn't really matter the power source, but it's more the reliability and the getting can it get the can we get through the shift. Um so just sort of alternatives are considering continuing this targeted adopted sort of hybrid approach the full transition which would be like very very costly and uh or just maintain the this isn't really an option but we listed it. Um, and then it just it does link to the council priorities for sustainability. And that brings me to the end. Uh, happy to take any questions anybody might have. Thank you, Robert. Any questions for Robert? I see Sue. I saw Jeff Luchia. Anyone online? All right. Take it away, Sue. >> Hi there. Thanks for your presentation. I am just curious if I I don't know what kind of feedback or suggestions you got from staff, but did anyone possibly disclose whether or not this was kind of like using the batteries um was more beneficial for their health? Like personally, if it you know, if you have people who are working, they don't aren't always going to disclose their health information, but you know, any feedback on whether or not this was helpful to like their health, asthma, that kind of thing? Uh, nobody. Uh, we didn't get into personal health information at all. We did talk about things like air quality and stuff. I There might have been one little quick bar graph that I probably went over really quickly that just said that some people notice better air quality. Um, we do we do care about vibrations. The folks who have been on like say chainsaws their whole careers will often experience some health difficulties, sort of like carpal tunnel sort of stuff. So, the fact that that's reducing that would help. And we've also done a lot of work lately with health and safety in terms of um sound um not exceeding the 105 dB and the battery equipment is typically quieter but uh in terms of things like asthma and spec specific or acute things we didn't that nobody uh nobody shared that with me. >> Yes. Sorry. It was that it was that little detail that you had about air quality that I just wondered what you meant by that and you know if that meant asked any questions. I just curious. We didn't go any further. It was just like did you was the air quality better? And like it truthfully I don't know why they only came at 61%. Like I don't know why it was not. If you're not using an IC engine near your body it should have been 99 or 100%. But >> and I saw your hand Mary Ellen. I got you on the list. Thank you. And then Jeff take it away. >> Yeah. No thanks for this. Um, I'm wondering in terms of the operational costs, like I get the upfront cost would be a lot more expensive, but not having to buy the gas, not having to fill like even costs and some time savings. Um, were you I know this is only like relatively short-term or even the maintenance for the equipment. Were you able to quantify any of that? Yeah, we we have started doing it a bit to see how much it would cost and like we always we it would be in phases obviously um that we would at this time there isn't anything powerful enough we'd still have to keep some IC powered tools around but it's just the upfront cost is so significant that when we only have say like $15,000 to buy new equipment this year instead of getting so like say it's 500 bucks a unit how much we can get for 500 bucks versus a,000 bucks like it's it's half of what we can get when we only have say 15 or 20k this year to spend. So we could have you know what I mean? Like we have to balance it like we couldn't we can't just go whole hog. Um yeah like we have yes we've considered these things like the fuel it doesn't they don't use a ton of fuel actually. Um but it is it is fuel and we want to be not using it. Um but yeah, just again extrapolating like if we do the replacement, we only have limited budgets. Like we're sort of doing what we can at this time. >> Sorry. >> Hello. Hi, Robert. Thank you for presenting. I just have a bit of a procedural question. So, um, this obviously is presumably already been presented or going to be presented at public works and you're just getting our our feedback as a committee. Is that >> uh No, this is the group that thought it was best to hear this. Um, this you're the first people to see this. Um, because it wasn't >> You're not we're not picking an alternative, right? You're you're presenting this to us and and someone else is going to be picking one of the alternatives that you've presented. It's just what the alter the the hypothetical alternatives would be and we are we are doing sort of we don't need we don't really need permission to go forward with what we're doing. You know what I mean? Like there wasn't a big ask like we still buy equipment and we're just sort of letting people know that like we tried and it's actually getting getting much better and we would do more but if again with limited budgets this like this is what we're doing at this time. Sort of a slow peace meal hybrid approach. Well, I I mean I think as a group we appreciate that you came and presented to us and let us know that there has been some improvements and successes in some of the technology that some things remain limited. I mean I'll speak for myself and say that you know I get that every little bit counts for climate action but I don't think anyone here is going to tell um you know staff to to use equipment that's insufficient for their work. Obviously you know we would hope that you would continue in a pilot approach to reevaluate every couple years and maybe see if alternatives become available, if prices become cheaper. lots of other areas of the world are adopting uh battery equipment. It's presumably going to get easier for your team to to find stuff. Do you have plans to keep rolling and trying? >> 100%. We just wanted to let people know that we're doing it because we do get occasionally there's a every once in a while there'll be a few people who through the counselor's office reach out and say like, "Hey, why are why are we using sort of gasp powered blowers still? Like it seems like a terrible idea." And we're like, "We're not we hear them and we we are trying." Um, and just again as things have gotten much better if you compared it I've been in this business for like 20 25 years now and like I've seen the first things come out and they were like very weak. They didn't last very long. So even if you look at the the first cars like the first Leaf versus what the first Nissan Leaf versus what's available now sort of thing. Um just like so we just want people to know that we're mindful of it like we're not we're not our heads isn't in the sand on this and we we are trying to do the right thing. Well, I definitely appreciate you presenting that for our committee and also for the public and making use of the fact that these are public meetings to have this discussion and keep the public up to date with what your team's doing. So, appreciate that. Thanks, >> Mary Ellen. I actually my question was u the costing of the fuel um versus the operating costs uh for the battery powered equipment and I understand and it's different budgets etc. But I do think it would be helpful to know that going forward because that's that struck me as an obvious question and to understand you know what it cost to run one of these units versus >> so it's it's interesting you bring that up. Uh, I think I'm as I speak to you, I'm going to dig in my email cuz I did ask somebody recently the fuel for a wei it it is it's very little. It's not it's not very much at all. Like we're talking >> like I I don't want to speculate but it is it is not much. Um, but it's it's all the extra costs as well. Like if we were to so for example at one of the yards there'll be say 80 workers. Um, I used to be superintendent one of the yards and I had 88 heads and almost all of them could be out cutting grass. And if I were to buy each one of them two to four batteries at $500 a piece, like if we needed four, if it's two out for the day and the two other two were charging for the next day. But if I had 88 time two, 88* 4, but two are always charging, I'd have like 176. Is that good math? So I don't know if like batteries are often like say about the size of say I have two cell phones here like six or eight cell phones stacked together. So I need the space and the power to charge 176. I would almost have like a farm of chargers and like the space for that or and the electrical capability for that. That's something else that needs to be considered. The infrastructure is not in place. Um some of the the yards have some of the older infrastructure in terms of that. So we need to actually for some char for some of the yards to increase their charging whether it's vehicles or equipment we need to actually increase the get larger transformers and stuff like the cost it's it's much more than just simply buying a little bit more. Um, sorry. I'm just seeing if I had the operating costs. >> I don't want to I think what you're saying, Robert, is that the operating costs based on your calculations thus far don't address the upfront capital increase associated with additional batteries is what you're saying. So, from a life cycle cost of perspective, you're still dealing with a green premium for the electrification of the lawn equipment. >> Yeah. At this Yes. And and we're just And we're not quite there yet. The yards the yards are so are in such a state that we I don't know if we if I could plug in 176 batteries to charge tonight at name any yard. >> Okay. Thank you. >> No problem. >> And Frank, go ahead. >> Yeah, I just had one simple >> Oh, you got to turn your mic on. >> This one. Is that on? >> Yeah, it's great. >> You didn't mention weight, so I'm assuming the two products are almost equal in weight. >> They're very similar. I um the batteries can be heavy and some of the units have battery backpacks. Um and the batteries, sorry, the batteries do get hot and they do get heavy. So that's actually a concern. Um but the if you touch the end of a hot Wedi on a hot day, it's also very hot. So um sorry, I'm also looking at the weeder question. That's bothering me that I don't have it ready for you. Um sorry, the weight it's it's close. It's uh for some of the units it is lighter. It's it's depending on the unit and the size of the battery. It's probably a bit of a almost a wash like like the smaller chainsaws are lighter but the wedies might be equal or slightly heavier sort of thing. When I say Wedi, I'm talking about the string trimmers. Sorry, I used a lot of colloquials today. >> And Jeff, you can go back. >> Yeah, just a quick one. Um, I don't know what kind of trucks you're using in your fleet, but can you not charge any of the batteries in the trucks? Like I know for some trucks that's more of an option these days, but I'm just wondering. >> Yeah, we've we've done a ton of looking into this. Like there are some like real Cadillac I say Cadillac like high-end people that do this, but the cost again the cost is so prohibitive. Um, we just right now we have old crew cabs. um that's what the folks are driving and maybe we could maybe we could trickle charge one or two batteries as they're driving. But again, if they if they have four people with two batteries each, sort of like eight batteries, like it's and they're just on and hopping on and off the truck, like they they'll get to the site, they'll cut for half an hour, drive to the next site for 15 minutes. It's not it's probably not ideal. >> Go ahead, Beatric. Thanks, Rob. I have a just a little question. You mentioned two batteries for every worker and >> approximate. So how many workers do we have? I'm just trying to get a little sense of >> each yard. So park so I used to be park south that's the mountain district. I had again 88 heads. Um not all of them are cutting grass but many most of them are in the summer months. Um the parkside its height is nearly parks and cemeteries 400ish 500ish people in the summertime. Not all of them are cutting grass but um yeah it's a lot. Again I said 1,200 pieces of small equipment um for for more perspective too. So like we'll send a crew out. It'll be like say three trimmers and a blower or two out with a crew. So that' be five pieces of equipment that would need at least 10 batteries. And then do you need 10 more charging for the next day's shift? >> And then Ian, if I can just um ask you to share just for a second, just I have one question I was curious about, Robert. Um if you were to kind of do a state of the the market in terms of the capabilities of the different equipment, which equipment do you think is ready for this transition? uh whatever kind of phased approach for it but ready for the transition in terms of a like forl like replacement like you mentioned trimmers have really good performance um but there were issues with blower uh leaf blowers I was just wondering which equipment do you think is ready for this electric transition and which which equipment is still uh needing some improvements in terms of performance. So anything depending on the use if if it's at a static location like a cemetery or a staffed park almost anything is good to go and we we've actually started doing that at some of the places. Um I believe we almost had an all electric we there's a lot of electric equipment at city hall. Um they're there. They can they can plug it in. It's good to go and they can change tasks. It's when you when you can change tasks. If you're only cutting for say like say I was working at the driving park this week and I I my trim in the morning and then I'm done and I'm off to do things like paint benches or pick litter. Um after I've done my morning trimming, I can plug the battery in and it's there for me the next day. It's the crews that are out eight hours a day doing nothing but cutting in the truck driving all across all around the city that that's that's where it really hurts. Um I think I mentioned small chainsaws and uh pole saws. The staff were very receptive. they actually preferred them between I don't know if between the weight and the um quickness of use um th those were those were better. So it's not necessarily which piece of equipment I guess like which um part of the operation they're they're working in. >> Gotcha. So it's more about the circumstances under which the equipment is being used. that's more of a challenge and it's all related to charging and then the cost factor is the other co factor that will inform the transition rate really >> right and yeah >> okay >> I have some photo it's I won't show the photo but I guess I could pull it up really quickly like the back the batteries sometimes are quite large like sometimes it's actually like a separate backpack that they're wearing of just battery depends on the piece of equipment so and it can be quite heavy and then just doing some quick googling um a typical gas powered weed eater string trimmer This is through Google. Basically, a liter or less of fuel between a third and one liter of fuel. So, what's a liter of gas right now? Dollar 180. So, it's a$180 or less of fuel. So, just for comparison, so if I guess if four three students are out trimming all day, it could be $6 or less total. It might be depending on where they are and what they're doing and how thick it is. Could be as little as a third. So it could be just one total liter. They might spend $2 that day on fuel depending on where they are in the time of year. >> Seeing no more questions. Thank you very much, Robert, for the presentation. Thank you. >> Yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me today. >> And the next item on the agenda is the climate ready Hamilton grants. Okay. Can everyone hear me? >> Yep. Amy, we hear you. >> I just have a verbal presentation that I'll share with everyone. Um, so the Office of Climate Change Initiatives has been developing the climate ready Hamilton program, formerly referred to in these meetings and elsewhere as the climate action small grants program. Next week, we're bringing a recommendation report before the general issues committee to grant director Luke the delegated authority to develop and launch the grant. The climate ready Hamilton uh overview and application guide is appended to that report. The overview and guide is a public-f facing document that details the purpose of the grant, three funding streams, eligible costs, how to apply, the evaluation criteria used to evaluate each application, and the details about what happens after you apply. As you'll remember, we began researching other small grants uh to help communities prepare for climate change. The city of Toronto climate action small grants program and the city of Edmonton community climate adaptation micro grant were most influential for modeling Hamilton's grant program. We've consulted with the city of Toronto staff about the application process and eligibility of their grant program including equity considerations and prioritization of uh folks living on the front lines of climate uh prioritization of funding to to folks living on the front lines of the climate crisis. And we hope to adopt a similar trustee process where nonprofit organizations disperse funding to the grant recipients. And this is also an equity consideration. We plan to engage three to four trustees located in different geographical locations in the city to administer the funding to grant recipients. Trustees will have the capacity to issue checks and petty cash to recipients in a short turnaround. They can also assist with capacity building by supporting uh recipients with funding, finding appropriate uh speakers and experts, securing event space, applying for insurance and permits and promotion where applicable. The defining principle for the grant is about building social capital and I believe we've talked to this group about that before. Um we know that those communities uh communities that are most resilient are those that know their neighbors and have prepared together. Uh there will be three three streams to help people come up with ideas. The first is learn and connect. These are activities that build stronger relationships between neighbors and neighborhood groups and that help residents to better understand their climate risk um and climate impacts. Uh the second is prepare together. So these would be activities to prepare communities and neighborhoods to be ready for climate emergencies and extreme weather events. And the third stream is improve spaces. So activities to renew, strengthen or bring new life to uh privatelyowned neighborhood green spaces that can have benefits of improving neighborhood quality of life, climate preparedness and resiliency to extreme weather. Uh and a core requirement will be that residents must apply with two other uh folks living in Hamilton. And when I say resident, I just mean anybody living in Hamilton. They don't have to have a fixed address or be a homeowner. But we want people to be preparing, knowing their neighbors and applying together. Uh no one should apply from the same household. Uh there will be six mo modules focusing on different climate actions that show core activities and core costs to guide applicants and to help them generate their own ideas for applications within these three streams. To date, in addition to the overview and application guide, we have developed the application form, a trustee information package to engage potential trustees, and three of these modules are close to being finalized with three more still in development. We're currently working with the city's privacy team and legal on both the trustee and recipient agreements, a member acknowledgement form for an interdep departmental review committee, and all other supporting documents. We're also working out the best way to host the online application. Once these pieces related to the application evaluation and trustee process are finalized, we'll be working with the communication staff and engagement staff at the city on a promotion plan to ensure that the information is easily accessible and equitably shared with Hamiltonians. Uh we look forward to bringing more updates to this group as we have them. And I am happy to answer questions. >> Any questions? I see Sue's hand up. Any other hands up online? Any hands up? Take it away, Sue. >> Sorry, this is just a quick clarifying question because the only thing I'm thinking of when I think of trustee is a school trustee, a school board trustee. What is a trustee and uh who like who is that and what role does it play exactly? >> Yeah, >> great question. So a trustee would be a nonprofit organization in good financial standing with the city um who has the capacity to act as a flow through. So they had the administrative capacity. They'll be a um a contribution. So the the all of the recipients of the grant, we know how much their project budgets total and we will have a group for each trustee. they'll kind of have a group of recipients for their geographic region and we will give them a contribution which is the addition of all of those project budgets together and they will know who to disperse the funds to. Um and that will mean that it can happen in a in a in a fast turnaround for folks. We don't want people to be out of pocket. We don't want anyone carrying um credit card debt from one month to the next. It's meant to be an equity consideration so that people can have the funds and um purchase with with having the funds ahead of time. Uh I hope I'm answering your question about what who who these trust trustees are. It's it's basically a nonprofit organization we're partnering with with through the city to administer funds, disperse those funds. >> It's not the same as a a TPA. That is that those are different things. Okay, just clarified. Okay, thanks. >> And then maybe one other thing I should mention is that there'll be two tiers. So they can be um they can just ask a financial throw flow through and cut checks for people. Um but additionally, we know that nonprofits uh can help with the capacity building for for folks who may need that extra support. As I mentioned, they can help them with event space or promotion if they're if they're having a a public event or with finding um trusted experts and other kinds of capacity building. And that will mean uh less of that burden falls on city staff. >> Thanks, Sue. Thanks, Amy. Um Mary Ellen, take it away. >> Thanks. Um I just uh need some clarification again about eligible applicants. So do the applicants have to be like individual residents in in a cluster or for example um could a faith community be an eligible applicant or some other community organization? >> Um would they? >> Great question. So they can be members of a faith group but registered entities. So nonprofits or um a church or a synagogue for example could not apply as the faith group. They can be folks who know each other through um through an entity like a faith group um or yeah an organized religious institution. um and that may be a very good way to meet other people to prepare with or to take action with. Um and so that would be totally acceptable, but we want to make sure that we are funding um folks like folks who are who are residents. We don't want to be funding nonprofits or folks that have means to apply for uh normal funding streams. This is meant to get straight to to Hamiltonians. Any other additional questions? Oh, I see Luchia. Then Jeff, can you just remind us of some of the ideas of what kind of use this grant has? Like maybe some some practical examples of what it is that it's trying to achieve and enable people to do. >> So, one of the modules is uh education. So we know that there are folks who don't know what their climate risks are and so they could apply together to host an event where they hire a knowledge keeper or an expert to come and speak with them. The core activities that are also listed in that module include um making sure that they feed people, they provide child care. These are eligible costs that can be listed. So there are equity considerations and resources that are built into each module. Another example would be emergency preparedness and asset mapping. And so a group of residents, say living on the same block, could uh get together over the course of a few meetings where they meet each other, they map their neighborhood assets. So areas uh either institutions or people uh who have skill sets to to help in a climate emergency. uh mapping out folks who would require more help and assistance in a climate emergency. And then maybe a subsequent meeting that they could apply for funding for would be to build 72-hour emergency kits. They may wish to get first aid training, for example. There's a list of a number of core costs and activities that would be eligible for module like that. Um, another one is what we're calling like a workb or uh to do very very small uh energy retrofits to houses. So, we know that there are folks who may not be able to do window sealing, but there may be people on their street or within safe to Marilyn's point, there may be folks within a faith group who know they can help each other to make these small changes to homes. And so, they could apply for bulk purchasing and then do little workbes. Maybe one person's house is done one Saturday, subsequently the next person on on a subsequent Saturdays they're going through everybody's homes to make these upgrades. Um I hope that this helping to to understand what's in those modules. >> Well, can we also maybe just again because this is our last big public committee meeting, can we talk about like when we say climate emergency like typically and I I'll put my my view, but I mean I'd love to hear OCI staffs as well. The most topical ones we're talking about are extreme heat and flooding, right? Like ju just to put a very fine point on this. We're talking about some very specific situations which have occurred in Canada. We're talking about things like the heat dome that killed 600 uh mostly elderly folks and folks without AC in BC. Um we're talking about sudden events um of the likes of which are occurring regularly currently in in lots of areas including Europe where uh governments are advising people that they need to have you know up to 72 hours of food and water supplies available in the case of torrential flooding and other other impacts. And I think that when people might be hearing this and they might you know hear some of the like oh we're talking about emergency preparedness etc. But like what does that actually mean? What does it mean in Hamilton? what areas of Hamilton are the most susceptible. I think there's maybe a couple other points that we could include for public information, some of the heat mapping, um some of the statistics about, you know, areas where we think that there are lots of people who are potentially highly vulnerable. I think that this is kind of needed because otherwise we might have people not kind of getting through some of the language and and realizing what we are talking about is people being able to respond to heat, people being able to respond to flooding. Those are the two most topical things. and like blackouts, you know, that's the other I guess you could put it in the climate. Uh whether it's due to extreme storms, ice storms, or the fact that ISO is not preparing Ontario for 40°ree heat, which is something that keeps me up at night. You know, like there's um a couple topical issues that I think we should be directing people's focus towards. So, that would be my advice is to maybe put some really concrete examples of what does this look like um for uh spuring people um to think about how they might take action. Yeah, thanks for that feedback, Luchia. So, there are resources at the end of every module. Um, and so certainly for the emergency preparedness module, there's a whole section of the risks specifically for Hamilton so that people can then prepare in ways that address those those risks and educate themselves. Um, but we can look into adding more of what you're suggesting. and then I have Jeff and then Sue and then I'll wrap it up just so we can make sure to get to the on the next agenda item. >> Yeah, thanks. Um I just wanted to I guess better understand a little bit about why the trustee model was chosen >> it seems like for small grants especially in the city having some experience handing out grants. >> Um I just don't understand because there's going to be administrative cost associated with that, right? So maybe why why trustees and what you expect in terms of administrative cost. Um I'm just trying to like not that there aren't a lot of good organizations doing good work in Hamilton. I just don't quite understand why that extra layer is required in this case and I'm just yeah if I could better understand that. Thanks. >> Sure. In speaking with our financial team, um they also support the use of trustees, particularly because of the quick turnaround and the number of checks, even small checks on Araria that would have to be issued. Um this does allow a lot of flexibility for a very small administrative fee to to the trustees. So like but I guess what's percentage-wise what do you expect in terms of the program cost to go to administration? That's what I'm trying to ascertain because like >> standard 15% >> to 20% for the extra capacity building >> something that's not something the city could do or just in terms of the way the bureaucracy works for the city would take longer and cost more. Is that what you're suggesting? I think we do not wish to add FTEES. So yes, it would require hiring new people particularly with the capacity building piece um where I talked about helping people with event space and promotion and finding speakers but even the 15% for flow through um yes it is it is a consideration that this is this is a more efficient way of making sure that the residents receive the funding in a very short turnaround which is really really important for folks living on low incomes and for you know all the intersectional realities of people who are on the front lines of climate change. We think very strongly that this is an important approach to take. >> Okay. The only thing I would note then is maybe it's something to look at in terms of the city's processes too, right? Because if if the city isn't nimble in this way, there may be good reasons for that. But just outsourcing, even if we're outsourcing to not forprofits, I don't know. It's something to consider. If this is something that the city, like cutting small checks quickly, is that something the city can't do if they're approved already? It just strikes me as a bit odd. But anyways, something something to think about like the city ultimately is going to be responsible in terms of responding to a whole variety of emergencies. And if the city doesn't have the capacity to be nimble and move quickly and um instead outsourcing it to to groups that you know could move more quickly, but then you have to put in all this oversight because you're having folks who are trustees then it's not. Anyways, just maybe something to consider because it seems like capacity that the city ought to have or maybe should consider having in the future. very quickly. Um, good points. What one one thing that I would add and you know as Amy was saying we've got sort of two tiers and the 20% admin would get some capacity building as well. So I think so I think part of our vision too is helping in those geographic areas to build build more connections so existing organizations you know th those those community members those residents who might come together to do something they link with an organization and and I think the hope is also that that'll that'll help to build stronger connections and networks in in those parts of the city. So there's another value added that I I would argue the city can't necessarily bring to the table, but there are bene like ongoing benefits for those residents as well. So I think I think that's an additional piece that we've been talking about. So >> okay, Amy, you know how excited I am about like this whole aspect of what you're what you're all working on. I just have a um two questions. Uh I'm wondering though like when we're trying to get people working together in groups to organize for emer emergency preparedness and the goal being we want people working together and identifying who's vulnerable and and that kind of thing. Is there going to be a requirement though, you know, to have some kind of vulnerable sector check or anything, you know, if we have people who are going to be kind of checking in with their neighbors and kind of going in and and I hope that makes some sense. And then the second question is just would there be any opportunities? We we need more people who are trained like have trauma-informed care, psychological first aid. And I know you mentioned first aid, but it made me think about any other opportunities, you know, with all the organizations and volunteer organizations in Hamilton, um, who may not be able to to, you know, to pay for that, but like just like some of the cycling ones for example, and there are people who we would want involved in some of the emergency preparedness, but so offering, you know, training, uh, something like that, like being able to fund a group of people doing that. Sorry, that may be a bit of a tangent, but sort of two things I was thinking about at the same time. >> I don't think it's a tangent at all at all. I will say that the traumainformed facilitators is explicitly noted in the modules um as a as a an eligible cost. There's also a number of resources that help to guide people to think of folks who they may not ordinarily include or who may they they may not be um to make sure that they're who who are people who are not normally included in in community uh initiatives. And finally, there's resources on collective decision-m there's like this is not an easy thing to do to ask people to prepare together in ways that are equitable. And I think we all need lots of guidance and practice uh ongoing practice in those ways. And so there are resources linked in every module and in the overview and application guide. So absolutely that's a really important consideration. Um and then to your question about vulnerable sector check, I know it's something that health and safety communities have been looking at especially with their um like checking on your neighbor in heat campaign. And so I do not have an answer tonight. Uh but I can speak with legal and with our friends in healthy and safe communities to see um what they think about vulnerable sector or where they've how they've handled it. It's a good consideration. Thank you. And then just to confirm, Mary Ellen, that hand is a legacy hand, right? Or is it a new one? >> Perfect. Thank you. So thanks so much Amy. Appreciate that. um update on the um um yeah oh sorry go ahead >> apologies thank you just a reflection from some of the questions I heard from folks I think is it possible to maybe talk about the theory of change for this program or the long-term vision of the program like this is a pilot and I think that bit just I think that's where some of the questions were so is year two and year three of this program going to be the same offering or is one of the intentions to say hey we had a very intentionally general offering in year one we're going to get somewhere based on the budget between a dozen and a 100 programs depending on how big they are. Um, and so we're going to look at what people requested, what was useful, and that might mean in year two or three we have very specific streams and then maybe something smaller that's general or we may change like I guess like that's an example. I'm not saying that should be the case. I just could there be some commentary on the long-term plan. I think that just this is a pilot initiative about 100K. We're looking at you know under 100 projects in realistic entity. And so let's just think what does year two of this look like? What does year three and could that be included in the purpose statement because I think that that kind of long-term change piece um and the program evaluation that comes in it. Um I I kind of snuck ahead to the report, but I also didn't necessarily hear some of those things in the verbal review, but those were the things I heard in the questions. And so I'm just wondering um how we might frontload some of that in the explanation. >> Sure. So the yes, this is a pilot and it it doesn't have um a timeline in terms of start and end date. It's it's the spending of that funding making sure that we've spent it entirely. We part of it is that we will see how the size of projects. So it's between 500 and 7500 um that uh that folks can apply for. Um my guess is it'll be maybe more in the middle of that range. uh probably 20 to 30 applications I would hope and that is going to depend also on promotion and so we are going to be learning a lot about promotion and engagement we will be learning a lot about the modules and the streams that people are gravitating towards the long-term vision could include that people apply initially to connect and learn together with the potential of applying again to do preparedness or do a subsequent project that builds on their previous project. Um but we don't we have to see how things shake out in the first intake. It will be a closed and initial intake so that it is not rolling. Um and that's for a number of administrative um reasons yet. I hope that I'm I'm sorry this small child has um entered. I'm I just want to make sure I I answered your question. Um >> I think you did >> the intake. Yeah. >> Check my clarification. So what I heard was like an additional program outcome. It's not just about the delivery of these programs and making sure that you know those 20 those 20 to 50 projects or again depending on what the dollar is depends on how many projects can happen but however many of those projects are happen. That's not the only outcome. The outcome is also to learn how to do this work to learn what's effective and what's not effective. And so one of the outcomes might be and I'm not again I have no predisposition but like it's a is we got this wrong, we're going to change this or it might be here's how we do this better. Um but I just I think it's important maybe especially in this space where everything can be sometimes so to acknowledge when we're trying something new. Um and to have that just be really essentially clear like this is us trying something and us trying something was a smaller dollar relatively smaller dollar amount um to get that result. So thank thank you. I just heard kind of a lot of questions about what are we doing with this? Where does it go? Um, and just I wanted to pull at that a little bit more. So, thank you. I really I feel like I also have a better understanding of where is this going to go and what are we trying to do long term with this program as well. Thank you. >> Thanks so much, Amy. I don't see any more questions. Um, we're going to move on to the next agenda item, which is Katherine and the Better Homes Hamilton pilot project. >> All righty. Can you hear me? All right. >> Yep, we can hear you. >> Okay. Okay. Terrific. Um, hi everyone. Um, so I'm I haven't spoken to you in a bit about the Better Homes Hamilton project and I'm excited to tell you that we went to GIC on September 2nd um with uh a staff report discussing the outcomes of the Better Homes Hamilton pilot program and proposed next steps. Uh and uh I'm excited to say that uh when that went to council that was approved. And so we um in terms of what was presented at uh in that staff report, we looked at um we did a a relatively in-depth analysis of the outcomes of the program in terms of the the retrofits that were done, the demographics of the uh participants. Um, I mean there's a there's if you look at the staff report, you'll see appendices that that that are multiple pages long regarding um which wards participated um the average age of homes, the average age of the uh loans and and sorry the average amount of the loans. So that's all available to you um uh through uh you know online through the EPUB. Um we also did surveys with people who participated in the program to get their feedback on the uh their experience with the program. And uh we also did a survey with particip or not participants but people who had either expressed an interest in the program and then decided not to apply or who started in the program and then um dropped out for for a number of of reasons that people gave. So looking at all that, we presented that to GIC and uh we're proposing an proposed a number of recommendations that would allow us to be able to extend the better homes uh pilot program because we didn't use all of the the funding. Um there was funding up to we would have been able to accept up to 50 participants. In the end in the two-year pilot sort of uh state the timeline that we had, we had 20 participants who had completely gone through the program and are currently paying back their Better Homes Hamilton loans. And so we still have some funding left over as well as funding for not just the loans but also administrative costs for the program as and marketing including marketing costs. So the one of the recommendations was to be able to extend the pilot program to reopen the program since we have we still have funding and um there are we are very happy to to have other residents participate in the program. There's also it's also a strategic move for us because having uh an existing Better Homes Hamilton program will allow us to be able to apply um to Federation of Canadian Municipalities funding for both scaling up the program beyond a pilot but also adding resiliency measures. And so that was also included in recommendations in the staff report for us to for council to um endorse us to be able to explore those those options. and we'll be going back to council with essentially uh a program design for uh the resiliency stream or the resiliency features of a scaled up better or and I think I called it an expanded better homes Hamilton program but also scaling up the program for more and including more energy efficiency retrofit measures. So, I'm gonna pause for a second because I don't see anything on the screen and I don't know if I'm talking to myself. >> No, you're not. >> Oh, okay. All right. It's screen. Okay. Now, you're back. >> Yeah. Any questions for Katherine? >> Luchia, Jeff, did I miss any hands there? Luchia, take it away. >> Just wanted to follow I know when we talked about this in the past, I had asked basically if all if we're going to focus uh future iterations of the pilot on houses that do not already have AC. Is that going to be part of that design for this second phase? Um to kind of have that consideration in making sure that we're focusing in on getting that double benefit of expanding access to cooling along with this better homes Hamilton. Um, thanks for that question, Luchia. Um, I mean, the resiliency stream that that would allow for that. Um, I mean, we can certainly look at that. In terms of our program design, we're not there yet. That's going to that's we're talking like, you know, probably a month uh, sorry, almost a year away before we have um, we really embark on a new like revamping the program and and including resiliency measures. So, or at least going to council with that and applying for funding for these for these uh for a scaled up and an expanded version. But I will certainly I'm taking note of that and we'll certainly make sure that we that we consider that and and how we can consider that. If I can just respond to that question because some of the interventions that are eligible measures in better homes Hamilton which airsource heat pump would bring in cooling into the household. What I think you're asking is is there any strategic outreach particular for houses or properties that don't have cooling at present. Right. >> Absolutely. And given that it's such a small like I get that we we didn't achieve our target but still a small number of homes. I think it's very achievable, especially if we we're talking about this small iteration of the continued pilot and not the scaled up version to find an additional 30 homes that don't currently have a AC where this would be a huge benefit um to bring in as opposed to, you know, 30 homes where people already have AC. And I mean, you will not find someone in our community is more passionate about getting off of methane gas than me. But um you know, we really need to think about in terms of everyone in Hamilton looking at this. Um, we need to we need to show that this is focusing on addressing some of those other concerns we have. You know, I was just talking about extreme heat. Who's at risk during extreme heat? By and large, people without AC. So, can we get just all the the bang for buck out of this project by uh, you know, getting 30 homes retrofitted and and cooled? So I can what I can tell you Luchia is that the recommendation that went forth and was approved by council was for an open all across the city first come first- serve um you know an extension on a first come first- serve basis if we were to change the eligibility requirements or um I mean I I'm not sure based on what council approved what I would need to do to be able to prioritize those communities. We could certainly prioritize marketing in that regard, but I don't know that I can I mean, or I don't know what I would need to do in order to be able to prioritize homes that don't have air conditioning. But I will look into that. And I I absolutely agree with you. You know, I'm I regret that I hadn't thought about that when I was writing the report to be honest with you, but I will I'll take that back and see what I can do about that. >> Well, I appreciate at least that there's some some avenue for us to pursue marketing uh in that regard. So, that's great. Great to hear that, Katherine. Thank you, >> Jeff. >> Yeah. So, I'm just wondering, could you summarize like was that the the main recommendation about just just having this sort of using up the remaining funding with this open sort of opening it up for additional um intake or like were could you summarize whatever the I guess the recommendations in the report that went to GIC just in case like for folks like myself who might have missed that. So essentially what we what we would like to be able to do is to expand the program to include resiliency measures and scale up the program across the city. So, I'm using I'm using that vocabulary intentionally because expanding it to include resiliency measures, but the I want to be clear that it's not just uh like it would be open to any eligible homeowner and eligibility is based on the housing type at this point. So, we wouldn't because it also depends on the funding from FCM, right? So there are particular requirements from FCM that we would then have to follow in order to be able to administer the program. But so there are particular housing types um and um you know legislative um conditions that need to be met for eligibility. But the idea is to be able to uh open up open this up, you know, a fullscale better homes Hamilton program across the city that also that includes more mitigation measures than we previously had, including, for example, we'll look into will explore solar panels um as one example and um and you know, possibly um you know, doors and windows, triple doors and windows and resiliency measures that might be looking at for example uh the effects of extreme wind extreme weather meaning wind and uh extreme heat extreme flooding is or sorry um flooding is also an issue but that's something we I have to connect with Hamilton water because I don't want to duplicate what the Hamilton waters the what the protective plumbing program already does um but So in order to be able to get to that point, that end point of a full-scale expanded program, there are multiple steps that have to happen in between. And those were recommendations that were in the report that essentially mapped out the road that needs to be taken in order to get to that final destination. And um that includes applying for FCM funding. But in order to do that, that requires um a uh program design study regarding the resiliency stream. Um and we have to have an existing program to be able to do any of these things. So there are multiple ducks that we had to line up in a row in order to be able to set us up to be able to scale up the program. Does that help clarify a little bit? There is an I I'm sorry I didn't prepare a uh um a presentation, but if you if you go online and find the uh the staff report from the September 2nd GIC meeting, there is a process diagram that explains that that shows the various steps that need to be taken to get to that final expanded full-scale program. >> Great. Thanks, >> Sue. Take it away. just getting a little sticky in my brain thinking about what Luchia brought up. And I mean I I would join the buildings working group and and try to learn a lot from that. But like that would have been my dream thing to help with like that the that application like what was missing, what to focus on. I know that Shelley, you know, would have loved to have been helpful there, too, just with the, you know, thinking about like how can we make use of the, you know, of this and and make sure that we're getting this out to communities that don't have air conditioning and and that kind of thing. So, just just like going forward, I mean, I know advisory committee, we're done like after this, that's done. We're done. So, you don't have to do anything. I mean, you don't have to do any of that stuff anyway, but if you are going to have community engagement, climate justice work, you know, going forward, maybe that those sorts of things might be things that you could still bring to us because that was the stuff I was I was I was learning a lot with Gabby and and uh happy to do that. But I mean, I was waiting for a moment like that. Thanks. >> I don't see any more questions. So, thank you, Katherine. And then the next next agenda item is um Linda. Take it away. >> Thank you very much. I just wanted to take the time tonight on behalf of the staff team in the office of climate change initiatives to say to each and every one of you how deeply grateful that we are for your time serving on this committee. Um, this was our we're we're I I can still I still feel like I can say we're a newish office, but you've come along on this four-year journey with us. And um just want to express our our heart heartfelt gratitude to all of you for everything that you've contributed to the conversations that have happened around this table. It feels like you've you've accomplished some pretty amazing things. Um and and just just want to say from all of us from the bottom of our hearts how much we appreciate all that you've done. And on that note, I also want to add that you all know we're transitioning to a community liaison group and we very much hope that you'll all consider continuing to participate in in that structure. And we're really viewing this as, you know, for those of you who are sitting members of this committee that you've kind of earned sort of membership emmeritus in the in a CLG moving forward. So, we we really hope that you'll consider continuing on. I think I think we all know that collectively we're still figuring out how that's all going to work. Um, but there's lots more work to do and I think hopefully you agree we've got some really important projects in the cooker. Um, and we need your advice and direction moving forward on on how best to to make those work out in communities. So, I I just I know I've got others from the climate team here. So, if anyone else wants to add, please, I would encourage you to do so. Linda, you've said it all. We really appreciate everyone's work and we really hope that you will join the L the CLG and the working groups that are just going to be the same working groups going over. So, so Sue, you'll have many a lot of opportunities to help in the buildings working group. >> Thanks. >> Thank you very much. And um um back at you in terms of the work and support um that the CL office of climate change initiatives has provided to the committee as well in terms of hearing respon hearing input and responding back to it and being cooperative and collective on the efforts and moving this forward. It's not easy work. And uh uh also I just want to say thank you back for all the support from the comm from not we're not a community leazison group from the climate change advisory committee. All right. Yeah. What what are we again? I forgot on that one. Any other folks want to add anything? >> I can. >> Perfect. Um, so we're going to move on to the building's working group. Um, oh, sorry, the the working group updates. I was just wondering if folks are okay if we move the building's working group down to the motions and then just move for the other working groups onto that one if that's okay. All right. Can I ask for someone from the community engagement and climate Oh, sorry. We wanted just to let people know. >> Yeah, we just wanted to let people know about the climate our annual climate forum that's coming up. So before before Linda goes, so let me just um second while Beatric gets that set up. Um I'll just take a few seconds to say also thank you so much. Um it's been a lot of work um that you all put in um and super appreciative. Um, and this is definitely not the end. I would say this is not the beginning either, but it's not the end. And so, uh, as we transition to the CLG, um, I think there's, uh, so much important work that we can all do together. And, uh, yeah, we're not going anywhere. And this is our next climate forum and we hope to see you all there. >> Sorry about that. >> Oh, sorry, Marian. To go ahead, Mary Ellen. I'm I'm sorry. I should have responded more quickly uh when the thank yous were going around. Um I'd like to extend my thanks to the members of council who served on this committee uh particularly the the fact that they attended meetings um and participated and gave us guidance. I had the experience uh previously on the food advisory committee where we did not see the uh assigned counselor once in uh the whole time of the that term. So I just wanted to add my thanks for that too. I think it's important. >> Thanks Mariel. Good point. Good point. Thank you. Yeah, I can speak to them. We had a couple of meetings and um had uh I think if you want to use a city term, fulsome discussion about where we're going. Um, and uh, I don't think that the um, sort of the the plan is entirely laid out yet, but we uh, I think we've got a good start to how it's going to be working and um, yeah. Did Did you guys want to add anything? I think Trevor and Beatric were there as well. >> Sure. Thanks, Shelon through the chair. Um yeah, just to add and I think this is one of the things where um so we have the terms of reference within the terms of reference for the future community lison group. It lays out kind of a highle plan for the call out for what we're calling the core group of of members and uh Linda has already said our our gracious offer to the existing members to uh be part of that. Um for those not part of this existing advisory committee there will be a more formal application process um and based on our engagement very very similar I think in terms of the steps of the previous advisory committee um without counselor's uh involvement it would be a selection working group um from my understanding the selection working group has been chosen it's been the climate justice and engagement working group and correct me if I'm wrong here is it Sue Shelley, Gabby, and then OC. Oh, and Jordan. >> Yeah, Jordan. Um, and uh we're open and transparent about uh that selection process. Um still building out what that kind of process looks like. Um we're still figuring it out what all can be done online to make it as transparent as possible. U but we are working with the climate justice and engagement working group to finalize like the application questions to make sure that those are fair and equitable. um looking at the review process, looking at the scoring criteria uh in alignment with equity and climate justice objectives as well. Um and just in terms of rough timelines, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Beatric, uh it's our hope to like formally start the marketing and promotion material probably um in sometime in late October, probably after the municipal election, I think, is the best time to do it. Um, so maybe even later October, early November. Um, and so that recruitment process or that call out process would happen roughly between I think November, December, maybe even to January 2027 uh with our hope to have kind of the first formal or maybe informal because it's not formal anymore uh CLG uh meeting. Um, and we can discuss, there's lots of time to discuss where and when and how those meetings are going to be held because in our previous engagement, I'll I'll stop here. I feel like I'm trailing is uh the need to have these meetings more in the community, for example, uh to make it more accessible. So, those are all things that we continue to work on. And if there's any questions, yeah, let us know. >> Go ahead. Um, go ahead. >> Can I just add one thing, too? I think we also had a discussion about um onboarding the need for people to be oriented, excuse me, oriented and or or receive some training um when they are invited to be part of these groups because um I think we found at least those of us that were there felt that might have been helpful. Um and especially if you're going out to um groups that maybe aren't used to sitting on committees and used to contributing in that way. Also keeping in mind the supports that people might need, daycare and transportation and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm just wondering um is there going to be some sort of like a temperature check with whatever the new administration is? Like obviously there's going to be um it could be a lot of similar faces. It could be the similar ones. Um, but before before things like kick off in earnest, I'm just wondering if there's going to be sort of a political temperature check on this. Um, cuz I'm I'm hopeful that, you know, the commitment to climate action will continue. Um, but you know, you can never take things for granted with these kind of things. So, I guess what I would say is if there's not a plan for that, that something like that might be a good idea because especially there's a real intention of going out into the community and dealing with folks dealing with in the sense of bringing folks in who might not be involved in in such things otherwise. So, if you go and say, "Hey, we're going to do all this cool stuff. It's going to be great." and then council's like, "Well, I don't know if this is the stuff that we find to be cool for whatever reason." You know what I mean? like if there's a change there, um I would just maybe caution of seeing where where things are um before making any commitments in the community because that could be problematic if if staff are out there and and sort of CLG folks are out there saying things um where there's not actually political backing or we don't know that there's political backing. So that would be my only caution. And I really hope that things continue and I hope that the the enormity of the sort of challenge we're facing is is something that council the new council is is keen to address. But um just can't take that for granted. Sorry. Staff and volunteers um aren't the decision makers, right? So, like I know there's a mandate currently. I'm just cautioning that just sort of a temperature check might be a good idea. >> Sorry, Sue and then Mary Ellen. Thanks. just speaking like Jeff I think the difference though Claire and and tell me if I'm wrong OCCI is that I mean yeah the the political thing matters but um we'd be just doing basically what OCCI needs us to do correct like we're not the counselors and whatever whatever you already what your plans are your work plans are we'd be working on that is that the difference there >> I can maybe help clarify too and and I think in essence the community lays on groups are meant to be like community-led staff supported um so it's to I'm going to first address some of Jeff's comments because I think some of the onboarding and setting the expectations of what a CLG does and what it can't do I think is super important to set those clear objectives and I think that was personally that was part of my worry about this group at the very beginning right is setting those clear expectations this is an advisory committee um we can provide our advice and recommendations to staff and then the council. Council is the ultimate decision maker. So I think that communication will continue to go forward with this future CLG as well. Um there is an ability to as as we form uh and we start scheduling our meetings. It's I think what I what we heard from this group too is uh the desire to have council participate in future meetings. So we intend to invite counselors. It won't be mandated. And so I think that's another way we could do a bit of a check on which counselors or which if council is interested in it. Um but uh I I think it's it's a good point. Um but uh and then to address Sue's your comment is um I think these CLGs have the flexibility to do what the CLGs like wanted to do. And so we've taken I think a more formal approach with our terms of reference laying it out very similar to the role and mandate of this advisory committee than maybe what other CLGs uh are doing. Um, so I think I think the the climate change CLG will have the ability to help influence not only just the work of the OCI but also to influence and provide recommendations on other climate change related matters and that will be within the purview of that future CLG as well. Does that help? Yeah, >> Luchia, >> since we're sort of talking about the transition, um I didn't want to interject earlier when we were saying thanks because that was such a good positive moment, but um I do have some negative things to say about this transition. And I think it's this is the time, this is the place to say them, right? Is that the role of this when this committee started, right? That the mayor, the senior manager, like the excitement around this committee was quite palpable. The people who came and the qualifications of the folks that were selected to serve on this committee were just absolutely astounding. The the people who wanted to volunteer their time uh to make a meaningful difference in their lives here in Hamilton and how prepared their community was for again this this enormous challenge that we have in terms of becoming a climate ready city. Um, and you know, I think as much as we uh as a group really appreciate each other, um, certainly what was not appreciated was having to change in the middle of finally getting going with this advisory committee, um, spending half of our committee time talking about transitioning the committee instead of talking about the things that the committee actually wanted to work on. And that's not the fault of OCI staff. Um, but it is really disappointing. It's really disappointing to see that um you know this work was uh wholly interrupted by a bit of a brick wall of that transition being forced upon us. Um it's disappointing that the public forum for this discussion is is not going to continue in the same way. Uh it's a pointing that the major achievements that this committee has had the ability and the interventions this committee has had the ability to do um only arose through actually being a little bit adversarial and using the the public levers available to us to talk to people in departments that we weren't originally supposed to talk to interject ourselves into decisions that were being made at council and um you know whether or not any of that will remain avenues in the CG again is is no fault of OCI staff. You know, you guys are are trying your best to incorporate um community voices into the things that you're bringing forward. Um but it is really very dispiriting that the role of advisory committees has been curtailed. Um and I know that many people felt that this this transition in the middle of of this committee's work um was a a severe turning point in the effectiveness of this committee. So I think that needs to be noted publicly. No one is currently campaigning on bringing back advisory committees. I think we can say that the liaison group transition is going to be permanent, but no one is going to be able to see what that committee is doing in a in a transparent way the way that this committee was transparent and the discussions that we had were on the public record. Um, and I think that that's a great loss to the city of Hamilton. Sue, just sort of piggybacking a bit on what Luchia was saying, like we absolutely have like really appreciated working with you OCI and staff and counselors and I think that this has given me a like the ability to see what you go through on a like just a tiny level because I can appreciate it's easy to to not be involved in in anything going on in your city, but just constantly be saying negative things and they're not people don't care and you really really care and we appreciate that the fact that you know right now I know my uh daughter and my my husband uh are you know they always tune in and they watch this and so I'm going to take this moment while we while we while I have it because this is you know a teenager tuning in to I I feel a little sad that she can't tune in and watch us anymore, but I love you and thank you. >> All right. Was the Did I see Jeff? Did you have something over? No. No, you didn't. Right. >> Um, >> yeah. Yeah. I guess it's just the the transition and still like I think the objectives are laudable but I just I still struggle with the fact that um like a lot of what this could accomplish the new group and there's a lot of unknowns and um I think that it's even less clear than sort of when we came in and then I just I would again caution like the whole thing of going out to community and equity seeking, getting people that would not involve themselves in these processes or haven't felt welcomed into these spaces previously and going out with an offering that's not maybe fully formed and not really understanding what the political direction is because let's be frank like people are going to be spending their time even if food or childare provided people are going to be spending their time. they're not going to get paid. And probably a lot of those these folks would be making or have less resources than the ones who have been around this table. And that's frankly why we're here because we have the time, we have the availability. We're able to do this um without getting paid, without getting fed, without getting compensated for child care or anything like that. We're able to do this. So that's why we're here. And I know that there was one of the things of wanting to see people who had maybe different resources, who had more challenges around the table, different lived experiences, but um like what's in it for them is kind of what I'm wondering. And and just again, if if we go out, we I'm not like to be clear, I'm not going to be involved. I don't really think it's um I think it's probably time for me to to step aside and let other people um have their have their place. But just be really careful if you're bringing people in to be clear as to what it is that is on offer or not on offer. And I think we don't have a really good idea of what is on offer and what change they could potentially make because there's not going to be this, there's not going to be the live stream. There's not going to be the potentially the record. It's not going to be going to GIC. It's not like there's all of these avenues and we've some of us more than others are sophisticated around how to sort of use these processes and we've had support from counselors in doing that and so what is it that these folks are going to be able to do and what avenues are they going to be able to have like there's not going to be an on the record so to speak. So, um, you folks and staff are good and I I would trust in you to convey this, but that only like we're as volunteers, as citizens, we're able to say things that you aren't in your position as public servants and convey things in a different manner. And I think that's sort of useful to have that expressed sometimes. And so, it's not going to be the same way. So, um, it's fine, but I was from the time it was announced, I was sort of I didn't really get the rationale for it, and I I still don't. And I'm I wish all the best for things moving forward. But, um, this is going to be important because whoever is coming in to the on the political side is going to be questioning, there's all this money that needs to be spent on a whole variety of priorities in Hamilton. So why are we spending money on X Y and Z climate wise and it's going to have to be like the rationale is going to have to be really tight and for all of this. And so I would just really caution um you know just keep keep that in mind because I think this term of council is one thing. I think the next term of council given all the headwinds we're experiencing is going to be an entirely different story. So I think it's going to be more challenging to get things approved. So just kind of keep that in mind. Thanks. >> Okay. I'd like to just move on to the next agenda item just on the terms of the time nature-based solutions. Just an update. >> Yes, happy to do that. Thank you. Uh so I wanted to thank the working group members and staff for their contributions. We did have some sort of dwindling numbers as uh the years went on for various reasons. Um and we've already spoken about some of those. Uh but I do think we made some progress on some goals that we we identified and um it was particularly helpful to see all the intersecting pieces of strategy that's related to nature-based solutions and uh having all those folks from staff. I think Beatatrice helped organize a meeting of 20 plus staff and we were able to learn a lot about how to move those strategies forward in a um a coordinated way. Um so specifically we were not able to meet during the summer um but we do have an excellent report and I want to thank uh Casha Bole Stanley who's a university student at Royal Roads University. she completed a report for us that reviewed um 60 naturebased solution actions. So, she pulled them out of all of those. So there's there's eight uh documents that she looked at, pulled all those strategies out, has put them into a very comprehensive um appendix, which I think is essentially going to be very a very useful tool as like the building block of uh almost like a benchmarking um you know dashboard type of thing. And she also made some great recommendations and um these are you know comprehensive but also very achievable things that we could bring forward and kind of move the uh naturebased solution goals uh forward. Um and so yeah we've talked a couple of folks about trying to translate those recommendations. I can I'm happy to do that work and kind of bring them into a draft form that hopefully the future iterations of this of the committee can um bring forward and then um yeah hopefully do present that we will hopefully be able to share that with council in the future. So I think that is the update. I just want to um flag for folks to keep a watch on the private tree bylaw and tree uh planting guidelines coming forward soon as well. We're looking forward to an update uh from staff on that. And um live right now is the Shidoke Golf Course land review uh on Engage Hamilton. And so that is an opportunity to to use that lens of uh naturebased solutions resiliency adaptation to what we can uh reinvision for that uh piece of Hamilton. I'll end there. Thank you. >> Thanks Juliana. Any questions for Juliana? >> All right. Thank you. >> Working group. >> Yeah. So, we had a meeting over the summer um but we don't have finalized recommendations ready to go yet in terms of that public face public facing dashboard for climate indicators um with a uh a lens specifically on Hamilton and how people are being impacted in Hamilton. Um I will note maybe somewhat similar to the previous comment in terms of the the big big feelings coming into this committee. Right. One of the things that was true at the start of this committee and remains true is that the average Hamiltonian is not aware of what we are talking about when we talk about climate impacts. Right? So sort of jargon that just kind of goes over their heads and we need to make some of this really tangible and concrete. That's something that we have the ability to do directly working with OCI staff and and and creating um something that's going to convey to folks what we're talking about. Right. The last time that the Earth was shook this much, an asteroid hit it. Um, and we've got an enormous enormous scale of changes already coming our way. Um, and set to continue year-over-year. Uh, we as a city are woefully unprepared. And, uh, some of the data to highlight that is is readily available. Some of the data to highlight that is available at a national level or a global level. And we need to find ways to scale it down to the local level and and pull out some of the storytelling that's going to um show people where it is that we're vulnerable and what we need to um what we need to do to change that and whether or not we're on track. Um something that we've spent a lot of time at this committee talking about is Hamilton's climate action strategy and how it is uh good but insufficient to meet the scale of the uh of the impact uh adaptation that's required. And so shining a bit of a light on this and making sure it's available, especially, you know, you're talking about some headwinds here, Jeff, like there's there's some ways, you know, we've talked a little bit and we've had some meetings as a technical group with folks that look at uh insurance as an example and that's something that we're hoping to continue to press upon because data from actuarial risk is very very good and the data suggests that we are we are not prepared on an infrastructure level as a city or as as private individuals. Um, and that's something that can kind of connect with people. it seems to be lost that, you know, we're talking about a global catastrophe and people think the e economy is going to hum along uh through it as if nothing's happened. Uh and that's not the case and we can already see that uh lots of these costs are rising to people. Um so we're anyway, we're going to continue to callate that. We're going to continue to hope hopefully get something up on the OCI web page and through whatever channels the OCI is available um to use to to inform the public about uh the risks and also what the the actions and and the benefits of those actions are. Any questions for Luchia? Seeing none. Ian, are you around? Can you speak to any updates in the transportation working group? Okay, then we'll just move on to the buildings working group which we do have in the motions. So, the buildings working group met over the summer a couple of times just to bring in um the collective um recommendations coming from the group related to the municipal owned buildings. uh private new development exists and existing buildings in the city of Hamilton and the the motion has been created for from the CL climate change advisory committee to the city of Hamilton um that's available and there's a whole bunch of resolutions as the where as where as whereas and all that stuff but the recommendations coming from that are in the AB C D kind of element. Um just wanted to this is this is coming from the buildings working group but does need to be voted on by the Hamilton climate change advisory committee in order to make its way into the GIC and other departments. Um, so I just wanted to see if there's any questions related to any of the recommendations, any questions related to the process that this would take that hopefully we can answer. Luchia, >> I just wanted to quickly ask about how you know um in the past and you know we've done work as a committee on uh green building standards which the province came in and the next day decided to quash. Um, do you just want to uh expand upon what the recommendations are asking and whether or not that uh is working under this new framework that we're in where a lot of this is controlled at the provincial level that has been brought into the recommendations. It's not recommending something that Bill 98 has taken away from the municipalities and I should say the province of Ontario through bill 98 has taken away from municipalities. Yep. Alex, go ahead. >> Uh, not a question, just a quick comment. I really appreciate the work and just how thorough and comprehensive this is. To Luchia's point, finishing on um saying, "Hey, some of those things that were in our Hamilton green building standards that the province has said, thou shalt not." We are now following up to say, "Well, can you um" and so but ending on that, but then also going through like what is possible right now. I think it's a really comprehensive ask. And so, just appreciate the detailed thought. Um and echoing some of the comments from earlier, I think the thing that stands out for me most um is the constant um kind of lens of uh kind of how are we measuring governing but also being transparent through those activities. And so appreciating the request that uh building plans for corporate facilities both be developed but then also there's some public reporting on that. So it's not just that it's kind of high level. Um yes, we as a department are doing that work. Uh yes, we brought forward three examples of where we think the opportunity our funding allows. Um but hearing that there's a request actually for more detail, not just what are the high level opportunities, but seeing the community say, "Oh, could you actually make some of those reports or make some of those numbers available at the building level?" Um so just appreciating that that's an ask for a level of detail, a level of reporting um and therefore a level of accountability um coming as a part of this motion and it's frankly a very comprehensive motion beyond just that clause. Um so just thanks to everyone involved in writing it. >> Thank you. And one of the things that did come to mind actually as we were talking about the transition from the climate change advisory committee to the community leaison group, but it was it is something for maybe the um the the the the trans uh the governance committee. There might for kind of kind of putting under that kind of banner of what are the opportunities for increasing transparency related to the community liaison group to meet some of those benefits that were from the climate change advisory committee. It is something that might be worthy for the the the upcoming working group to look to see what is it that is available to the community leaison group to increase that transparency >> I got that's okay >> y >> Gabby who's still around from governance like who could help with that like >> I I don't know because we have to we'd have to kind of figure out who's going from the community group but there is nothing stopping any one of them in the present climate change advisory committee for continuing on either in the community leazison group or in any of the working groups right so there is still that opportunity but the goal with the moving towards the community leazison group it opens up a lot more opportunities for a lot more diverse people to be able to kind of be part of that and I think there were some conversations in the the recruitment kind of outreach all that stuff speaking to trying to build more communications that it's not just the community leaison group that you can participate in. You can be part of the community leazison group. You can choose a working group or you can just kind of keep up to date in terms of what that is happening in this community lison group. Go ahead. >> Yeah, just clarify. I was just I was asking whether or not you were saying like you the governance uh working group could help with the trans like during the transition time. Since I was >> No, no, no. That that it could be more about the community leazison group um or the the the kind of the governance group exploring opportunities with OCI staff to try and the community of the zone group to figure out how do we improve on transparency, the transparency losses we are having as a result of moving from a community advisory group towards a community ladone group. >> Frank, go ahead. Yeah, I I have trouble supporting this motion and it's because Alex was sort of you made a good point in that it's all there but it's like reading a book. Like emotion should be just one or two sentences like what do we want? It it just seems to go on forever listing everything that you want and you can't expect even though Alex is retiring as a counselor to read this stuff like it's just overwhelming I think and it needs but appendex some of the stuff but make the motion very clear like two or three things that you want and um so that it's communicated easily to uh the next level. I mean it's not the oh uh it's not the staff the staff can understand it let's say but can they communicate it to the other people in the city other groups in the city and then can they communicate it to the elected officials >> and uh I just I can't just can't support it in the form it's in >> that's fine but it would have been good as being part of the building's working good that you would have raised that >> I said >> at the time of the meetings as opposed to now in the meeting. But that's fine. No problem. >> Um, but I think one of the rationes for that, Frank, is because there's a number of different departments and a number of different streams these recommendations are aimed towards. >> Yeah. And >> so, as such, there's some Yes. council as the decision-making body has to make the decision on whether they're going to take any of those recommendations. Step number one. But then those recommendations if they are approved by council then have to go to different departments inside the municipality for that to inform their work. >> But it's one city, right? It should be one city with everybody understanding what we're trying to do with climate change. It's not that difficult and there's only two or three things that we want. You know, adopt standards. We can't adopt standards for the private sector, but we can for our own. We have an internal fight right here in the city on how to do things and that's that to me is unacceptable. Like it should be simple and across all levels in the city. That's my suggestion. We keep it simple. Trevor, >> just a few quick comments and not trying to dissuade your decision at all, Frank, but I I I understand where you're coming from with the the length of of the motion as one of the staff that supported the working group um and support kind of just updating and and helping uh the working group uh put in these recommendations. Um I believe they are actionable. Um and it helps to direct uh work from other departments that we if if and this is if if general issues committee decides to action these recommendations, right? And that's a big if. Um but just to just to kind of set those expectations too is like it's not like this is going to uh to happen right away or happen overnight. It's going to be OCI working with these different departments to to bring back additional information and reports. Um so from a staff perspective I think these are actionable and and realistic and reasonable. Um uh but understand that it is quite a lengthy uh document. But the last thing I want to say is this is the last chance that the climate change advisory committee has the ability to put forward this type of motion. Um, and I want to kind of say that in this future CLG, we continue to want to work with increasing transparency of reporting for that CLG to the council. So, just wanted to put like our commitment to to working with the CLG on that. I I can I guess we can agree to disagree because I I think we're at a point where it's pretty obvious there's there's there's blocks of ice off the Himalayas that are falling down and flooding people. It is not time to start studying and thinking about this. There's surely something that we can all agree upon that we can act upon immediately. the the sense of emergency or the sense of crisis is not in this room and the sense of do something that you should have done yesterday today, right? And not send it off to subcommittee. But anyways, that's it just uh it's frustrating, but that's but that's what it is. And if it's the last kick at the can, it's the last kick at the can. But I mean, the problem is not going away. And now we got a trade ward on top of all of this. So anyways, >> Lucha, go ahead. >> Uh Frank, I I completely agree with your sentiment in terms of this should be obvious and this should be urgent. Um I think that what Trevor and Gabby have raised is that, you know, we have the choice to vote for something that might be imperfect, but at least we can get it across the finish line. Um, I was just going to highlight in terms of the governance group and and some of the concerns here, nothing that the governance group does is going to be able to bring back these um citizen committee reports uh because that decision is is outside of the scope of our group. So, we will not have the ability even if this is imperfect, we won't have the ability to to make a better version of this. So, I think that's going to um significantly sway uh many members of the group, even though we might fully agree with you, um to say, you know what, something is better than nothing, and we're going to we're going to try to get something across the finish line uh today. >> Okay. >> Any other input on that? Any more questions? No. Then what is the process we have to use? Just a vote. Correct. >> Is it just we we are accepting all the items and then we're going to go to the motion. >> Okay. >> It's a separate item. The motion is a separate item. >> So, we have to then do some sort of motion for the working group update. >> So, so we're just, you know, you're receiving all the items together and then we're going to go to the next item eight, items for consideration, which there's none, and then we'll talk about the motion, which is item nine. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, now we just want a mirror second to to accept all the the information that we just >> Okay. So, can I get a mover and a seconder? Luchia mover. Seconder. Mary. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Shel. No, Sue, that's your hand. I can't see your hands or your hands are Sue. Sorry. Um, for all of the updates, then we have no items for consideration. And then we go to the motion. And now we do a vote on the motion. If there's no additional questions. >> Okay. A mover. I guess the mover. >> That was me. And then seconded. I need a seconder if there's any seconders. >> Oh, gotcha. Thank you. >> Shall we Sue? And then I would need to have a vote on approvals of it. >> Put the motion on the floor for just final discussion. >> What does that mean? >> Just have >> one more chance to to talk about it. >> It's on the floor. It's been put on the floor. That was a motion. was moved by seconded by Shelley. So now it's on the floor for discussion. Any final discussion? >> Final discussion. Seeing no final discussion, then we go for all those in approve approving the motion. >> All right. >> Ian is hands up as well. Okay, perfect. Let me just Sorry, just give me a second. Can't write that fast. Juliana, Alex, >> I'm not voting. >> No, you're non voting. Sorry. Okay. And then I need um just anyone's not approving it. >> You need one desenter, right? >> Right. That's okay. No worries. All good. >> A mover, a seconder, and a denter. You need >> the denter. >> The disruptor disruptor. >> And then that does pass. >> Okay. So, that one's taken care of. Anything else we need to do with that motion, Beatatrice? >> So now we staff would write the CL citizen committee report for for this. >> Okay. But we don't have to do anything. >> No, that's it. >> So that's taken care of. >> Um any other >> Sorry, just a question. So then the report would then just go to committee after it's written because what happened previously? Did the reports come back to here first or they just went straight? Okay. So, same process. Okay. >> And then um you already did the Hamilton climate form so we don't need to do that again, right? >> Okay. Then the meeting is adjourned at 7:51. >> Wow. Okay. Just one one can I make one point? >> Yeah. It just people in the room shouldn't know that there's some observation that I've made that I I have to mention. Anyway, so there's uh pro properties that are being developed and in Stony Creek and the the requirements are 30% affordable. Well, 30% affordable is is the requirement. And uh I won't even mention the company that received the the grant or received the the go-ahhead. They're doing 100%. 100% affordable. And that's to me that stigmatizes that building to some degree. Then we have the Bayfront which is zero affordable. So we go from 100% to zero. And I think the Hamilton that I wanted to see, the vision I see is you distribute it at least 30% everywhere to go higher, but you shouldn't have 100% anywhere and you shouldn't have zero anywhere. It should be a mix of people. So you're not discriminating based on income. Discrimination is still discrimination. So if you discriminate income, you're going to create some social issues in that building that maybe could have been rectified with a better balance. you know 7030 or whatever. That's it. >> All right. Thank you. >> Then I think we can adjourn the meeting at 7:52 which is still early. >> Thanks everyone. All the best >> everyone online. Thank you for >> Thanks to everyone. Sorry I missed the party. >> We missed you Mary Ellen. Yeah.