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Growth Funding and Music Priorities - Strategic Priorities and Policy Committee - February 24, 2026
London · March 02, 2026
All right, colleagues, it is 100 p.m. I'm going to call the fourth meeting of the strategic priorities and policy committee to order. And I'm going to begin by acknowledging that the city of London is situated on the traditional lands of the Anachabic, the Hodneson, Len Pawwok, and Adawandarin. We honor and respect the history, languages, and culture of the diverse indigenous people who call this territory home. The city of London is currently home to many First Nations, Matei, and Inuit peoples. And as representatives of the people of the city of London, we are grateful to have the opportunity to work and live in this territory. The city of London is also committed to making every effort to provide alternate formats and communication supports for meetings upon request. And to make a request specific to this meeting, please contact SPPCLondon.ca CA or phone 519-661-2489 extension2425. Colleagues, I'm going to begin by looking for any disclosures of peerary interest. Seeing none, um at the request of our uh staff, I'm going to seek a change of order. I'm going to look for a motion to deal with the confidential item in camera first. Uh, as it relates to an item later in our agenda, we should receive the confidential report first. So, I look for a mover in councelor Stevenson and a second or in councelor Hillier. And I will ask the clerk to uh open the vote on the change of order. Councelor Plaza votes yes. Cuddy votes yes. Councelor Hopkins votes yes. Council Hill, your votes yes. Councelor Stevenson votes yes. Closing the vote. Motion carries. 12 to zero. Thank you colleagues. So that means we're going to deal with item six on our agenda first. Uh this is the information supplied in confidence to the municipality by a crown agency of Canada solicitor client privilege advice. Uh so we will ask uh our guests in the gallery uh to wait outside. Those staff who aren't uh part of this to wait outside to go into Kenya. Oh sorry we do need a vote to move into close session. So I'll ask the clerk to open that. Karen and Josh. Councelor Truss has a verbal. Councelor PLA votes yes. Councelor Hopkins. I vote yes. Closing closing the vote. Motion carries 13 to zero. Thank you, colleagues. We'll just get everything secured and then we'll uh deal with the confidential item. All right, colleagues, we are going to resume now with our consent agenda. Uh, I will draw the colleagues attention. There was a request for delegation status from Mr. Butler. So, if we want to grant that, we would need somebody to pull that item. seeing councelor Trussell and Stevenson asking for that item to be pulled. Uh so we will pull that uh and deal with it under deferred matters. Uh so that leaves items 2.1 and 2.2 on the consent agenda. Uh do I have a mover and seconder for those? Councelor Hillier and Frank. So that's moved and seconded. Now we will open the floor to any questions or comments. Seeing none, then I will ask the clerk to open the vote. Councelor Poa votes yes. Closing the vote. Motion carries 14 to zero. Thank you, colleagues. Moving on, that brings us to our two items for direction. Uh as we have no scheduled items, the first item 4.1, the London UNESCO city of music action plan 2021 to 2025 update. Uh we also have uh two communications to receive and a uh added from councelor Trussile. Uh before we do that, uh I'm going to ask Mr. Crossman uh to provide us a brief presentation on his report. If you want to come up to the podium, Mr. Crossman will have uh it adjust that height for you. and the mayor on the on a point of order wanted to know if your UNESCO presentation will be a musical presentation. Thank you. Okay. I did request a walkup song that uh didn't come through. I'll do my best. Well, when you're ready, uh if if you can give us a brief presentation of 5 minutes or less, go ahead. Thank you. Um Corey Crossman, director of the London Music Office, uh and focal point for Canada's City of Music, London, UNESCO City Music. The London Music Office is the division of tourism London and a board of the city of London reporting in through city manager's office. I'm here to update you on London's UNESCO City of Music Action Plan covering the dates of no November 8th, 2021 when we're first appointed UNESCO City of Music through to December 31st, 2025. Uh, UNESCO Creative City Network UCCCN members must submit a quadrillennial report in line with the action plan. The UCCCN is streamlining that process now to have an intake in 2027, date unknown. This is in line across all creative city designations. The action plan is closely linked to council's strategic plan. So I'm reporting back as promised. Key achievements. There have been many. Culture is certainly leading conversations and that is seen in the special events sound policy bylaw where we have a balanced modernized approach for our special events. London has been recognized for excellence in music city development and music city of the year in 2024 voted on by the Canadian live music industry itself. Community input and uh community leaders are taking action and leading by example with this designation such as Paul Seed fund via the London community foundation which funds live music providing fair compensation and access to events. Uh London created the UNESCO city of music host city award which you can see advertised on a billboard in San Lafar Turkey uh which was first introduced in 2024 when London hosted the UNESCO cities of music meeting hosting 31 cities at the time. The metrics and dashboard uh is a key piece of this. So the dashboard lives at london.ca. It's now home to a live public-f facing dashboard. Uh thanks to our friends in economic partnerships for the assistance in creating this which is powered by PowerBI. Uh these metrics can be updated regularly and adjusted and the metrics are captured based on the established criteria which includes the city of London service area or service staff has led or contributed the event or project that's tracking the city or project received city of London funding including municipal grants or municipal city supported funding. Looking at a big part of our exchange is how collaboration is highlighting uh a centerpiece of this designation. Exchanges with fellow UNESCO creative cities are integral to both import and export opportunities. Uh we've exported artists to 17 UNESCO creative cities across multiple projects while importing 11 artists from UNESCO creative cities. Oftent times multiple returns for some of these artists. Music is creating opportunities for the broader cultural community and contributors. Uh the JU global forum in South Korea, integrated artist, a media artist from London. The London City of Music Conference uh worked with uh a graphic designer from Asahikawa, Japan, a city of design is paired up by the UNESCO creative city network. Virtually there's opportunities existing as well. A great example is how London is leading the UNESCO Jazz Day relay. In 2025, 21 cities participated across 18 countries. And I know a big question is next steps. So, we're going to continue to implement the existing plan that we have in place until 2027. And based on community fat feedback gathered during the city music conference summit in uh November of last year, uh there was a clear need for more music incubation spaces in the city. There's more exchanges that are being requested, a need for uh us to welcome more to London and us to export more to the world. There's a lot of stories that are being shared, but they're not necessarily reaching everybody. And that was something that we heard is that not everyone's aware of the winds that are taking place, even those that are following us on social media channels. So more engagement is needed. The need to break down silos and connect community and sector is going to be key. Connecting the broader arts community will help elevate this. Next, there's a four a new four-year plan will come with the 2027 to 2030 UNESCO City of Music uh action plan. Uh and that will take place upon our next report. So, thank you for your time today and the support. Thank you, Mr. Crossman. Uh, so colleagues, I'm going to uh we do have the uh recommendation in the staff report. Councelor Trussau, you wanted to make an amendment. So, I'm going to go to you and see if you want to just move the staff report with your clause C uh amendment at this time. Yes, I I would do that because I think um clause clause C is consistent with A and B. So, I don't think there's a um issue and I think it fits nicely with clause B and I'd like to move them together. Um I believe the clerk has a uh current copy of C which could be put on the screen and I'd be looking for a second. And we've got Councelor Hopkins seconding. So, we'll put the whole thing as one motion on the screen. Of course, people can choose to ask for something to be called separately if they wish for voting purposes, but that way we've got one single motion. and we don't have to go through the amendment process. Uh so the entire thing is on the floor. We'll just give and it's now up on escribe. Uh so colleagues can see councilor Trussau did circulate his amendment in advance. Uh so we will uh open the floor to questions, comments, debate. Councelor Hopkins, go ahead. Thank you. I've got it now. uh happy to second this. I know the mayor put up his his hand. I would have been more than happy to to move over this seconder, but I'd like to speak to why I am seconding this. I really want to thank uh councelor Trussau. He's done a lot of work on this. Thank you, Mr. Crossman, too, for your presentation and to staff. I know there's a lot of work uh a lot of stuff going on uh in the community, but what can we do uh better? I think this is a great opportunity. We've got a an advancement of two more years uh to work on it. How we can align it with our economic development plan and the downtown plan. I think it's really exciting stuff. I'm very supportive about of the more spaces. Uh Mr. Crossman, you did mention it in your presentation as well. Uh we know we have it in our e economic strategy plan as well. Um, but I think we need to look at the needs of the community and get some more information and an update uh to this council too. So, uh, very supportive of uh, the amendment and the the recommendation. And I've got Mayor Morgan next. Sure. I'll say a couple things. First, um, to through the chair to councilor Troau, uh, I just want to say thank you for a thoughtful amendment uh, with a lot of detail. I I you know I I always appreciate when something comes uh that I can read look through. Um I actually don't have a lot of questions because you're pretty thorough in your uh in your uh uh report and I'm happy to support the um uh the motion that you've put forward which includes of course the staff recommendation which is where I I I want to turn just to a few comments. Um, I think the the city of music has continues to have great potential. Uh, and I think we can talk a little bit about how we can continue to magnify that and take advantage of that designation. Uh, and I think some of the clauses here work towards that. But I don't I don't want to shy away that although it's not maybe something that every individual walking down the street knows that we have this designation. I don't want to shy away from the fact that I think it has been very successful over the past number of years. Um and and maybe that's because I've I and members of council have a bit of a window into the activities that are happening. But, you know, from my previous terms on council this term, when I show up to an event, uh, even at RBC Place where it's a conference, you know, the way that music has been integrated into all of the things that we do, uh, whether it's at the airport or whether it's at a conference or whether it's when we're hosting people or whether it's the way that we even approach having a an O Canada singer here in Council Chambers. Um, the way that you've thoughtfully tried to integrate music into as many things as we possibly can. uh across the city uh I think is is is is very thoughtful and actually breeds a bit of grassroots demonstration that local artists, you know, they don't need to be, you know, superstars to have their creative work recognized, celebrated, and showcased uh in our city. Uh now, can we do more? For sure, we can. And I think we're only at the edges of the potential that we have here. But I think what's been laid over the past couple of years is a nice really real grassroots foundation to say we're going to actually actively try to incorporate this into as many things as we possibly can. Uh we're going to try to think about music in the activities we do. You know when the city's celebrating events bysentennial you know and even just regular celebrations we have on an annual basis you know music has been integrated into a different way and I think that's actually magnified kind of the the creative sector generally in London. you know, we see the success of the film office and other creative sectors. Um, having that incubator is pretty impressive. And then, of course, I've had the window into seeing um some of the activities that we've hosted internationally here. Uh, and the perception that the international participants have about what we've done so far, you know, is uh is well regarded and and an example for others. Again, I always say Londoners are probably hardest on themselves. So, we'll always say yes, we can do better. Uh, but I wanted to make a few comments today to say I actually think we've been quite successful in getting this off the ground, quite successful in taking some steps in the right direction. Obviously, a lot more that we can do and a lot more uh that we can go with this. But I want to commend all those involved uh in the industry, particularly the talented artists who, you know, have this opportunity to showcase, you know, what is in some cases their life's passion uh for many others in our community to see. So, um, thanks, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mayor Morgan. I've got councelor Prible and then councelor Stevenson. Thank you. I will certainly support that amend amend meant as well. Uh I'm quite sure council already discussed it with our staff, but I just would like to go through the chair to our staff if uh there were any points that are included in in this amendment that you would like to comment on or potentially question anything miss uh through the chair. Uh I believe it speaks to itself what's listed. Nothing else to the amendment. Thank you, Councelor Prible. Councelor Stevenson, thank you and thanks for the presentation and thanks to the counselor for all the work on this. I really appreciated uh getting this and having the opportunity to support it. I did have a couple of questions in the presentation. It talks about the um exchanges and the number of those and I just wondered uh if we could hear more about how the selection process goes for that, how people can apply for that and in terms of the expenses, how there can be transparency around that, whether it's staff that are traveling or whether it's musicians that are potentially being paid. Mr. Crossman. Uh so through the chair and yes, uh it's an important question to uh to ask. Um often times how how uh exchanges are taking place is that uh a city is coming forward with a recommendation or a city's coming forward with a project that they would like to work with us on. Uh so heading to our our subcluster meetings the cities of music. This is when these exchanges sort of take place uh or to our full annual uh meeting where all UNESCO creative cities take place. So cities will propose projects um based on you know their assets in their community uh and they'll put it out with feelers where to other cities how could you engage would you like to participate kind of thing and then at that point there there's specific it can really vary but there are specific recommendations often that those cities are making we're looking for an artist that's touring we're looking for an artist of this genre we're looking for an artist has x y and zed um we have a directory on our website London uh for artists on londonmusicoff.com that is something that we share often with people um in this community and outside of it and people select uh artists to perform based on that often times. Uh when we hosted in 2024 that was a great opportunity to showcase our artists to the community and we had a number of artists that actually received showcases from that. Uh I think it is also important to note that the caliber of artists that are being selected for these programs are creating opportunities for themselves once involved in this. Uh a great example would be John Felner. uh he participated in the Ford City Filmfest. Uh he won a category and it received an exchange uh with two German cities. Uh that then led to an exchange in Liverpool that then led to an exchange in Deu South Korea. Uh he's been able to open doors for himself. So we're there to play that role and help facilitate. Um depending on the exchange, it can really uh differ in in what is offered. Um some cities offer full flights and accommodation. Um sometimes we need to assist. The one thing that we are consistent with is ensuring that we're paying our artists, compensating them for performances. Um, ensuring that they have food and they're taking care of while they're in the other city. Uh, a lot of times though once an artist touches the ground that that the city then takes over. So, it is important for us to have relation for myself as the focal point to have relationships with these uh other focal points so I know that our artists are in good hands and I hope that helps. Councelor Stevenson. Thank you. It does and I mean it's an exciting thing for our city. Um just looking to support in terms of and as I usually do around accountability and transparency. Is there anything keeping us from sort of highlighting the musicians that we're sending and the amounts that we're contributing as taxpayers, right? uh for their travel and then even in terms of staff being really transparent about how much we're spending in terms of uh taxpayer dollars for staff travel. So through the chair um as I as I said a lot of times we're highlighting these things through socials uh through our social media channels. We're telling the stories uh when and where we can. Um, in terms of compensation, I think maybe that's a piece where we could discuss and and maybe set a rate for artists, a guaranteed rate across the city. That might be a strong actionable item as UNESCO City of Music. Um, and then it's an equal comparison, but generally we operate within 120 uh to 125 per member per performance is sort of that figure recognizing an artist is traveling um and there's more work involved. Um it depends on what that exchange uh includes. Sometimes these exchanges are just performances, sometimes they're showcase opportunities. Uh sometimes they're writing sessions. It can really uh change and evolve. Uh and it is really unique in the sense that it's based on what other cities offering, right? We want to make sure that we can get the most from our partner uh and provide the most comfort to our musician. Um so it's it's not like a it's not cut and dry, but it would make sense to have some established fees. So one way that we are using the designation to uh gather more content and do more storytelling is the artists are over there and we'll give them a stipen to uh capture social media content which we then sharing on socials. So we're trying to take every opportunity we can while being as fiscally responsible as possible. Counselor, thank you. Yes. Uh you know really great and not not questioning how it's done or that it's not being fiscally responsible. It's the transparency piece. Um, I know there was some issues around the budget and uh, you know, whether that could be shared or not and that is a question I have through you to staff. Is is a an addition to this amendment needed or an amendment needed to this motion to ask that the budget and actuals for 20 to 2025 be put on the dashboard uh, for public viewing. Miss Derspair. Thank you for the chair. So the music office budget is part of the tourism London budget which is part of our overall city budget. So the information is there counselor through through the deputy mayor. Um but if there's more information that you're looking for more specific information, we're happy to talk offline about what that is. But but it is approved as part of the council uh the council's multi-year budget process. Thank you. I'm talking about the granularity of the London music office given that there's a whole music industry in our city that's interested in this program and wants to see you know we all supported or I think most of us supported this investment in this to just show where it's going that this much is going to travel and this much is going to uh whatever else we're doing salaries to just be really transparent about where the $350,000 a year is going. Um, as I said, it's been p it's public information and just wondering if on your dashboard if you need an uh direction from council to just put that on the dashboard cuz otherwise I'll just move the amendment. Miss Dersbear, thank you. Um, yes, I I'm I'm I understand the question. Um, you're asking for a level of granularity that would, I suppose, then apply to every one of our organizational units across the corporation, which I'm not uncomfortable to suggest, but the music office does exist inside of the city's budget. Um, so if you'd let us think about this, take this back, have some discussion about kind of the information that you'd like to have shared, we're happy to do that. Okay. Thank you. Given that uh I'll speak between now and council offline around that, but I do that's great. But I do have the budget and I'm looking at it and I have some questions about budget to actual. Is this an appropriate place or would you rather I do that offline as well? Actually, Miss Dersbear, I'm going to answer that as chair. That would be more appropriate to follow up with detailed specifics offline. It's It's really Well, I realize that you're asking because this report's before us. It's not really part of the approval motion that we have right now. So, councelor, I I would really suggest that those should be listed and sent to staff to to answer offline. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to do that. But this is a point that I've been making every time this kind of thing comes forward. When we have reports coming back to us saying, "Hey, this is what we did with the money." I would like to see the budget to actual for the taxpayers to have a look at and for us to do our due diligence in terms of uh being able to ask some questions about how the dollars not from a sense of that anything is untoward just that transparency piece to say to Londoners here's what we did with your money and here's why it's a great thing. So, I'm happy to support this uh motion. Appreciate all the effort that went into it. Really looking forward to, you know, doing even better in this area and involving the public in that. And I I will very likely have depend well I I'm still very interested in being transparent on the budget and the expenses and having that on the public record. And so hopefully between now and council I can come up with something that works for staff and for for me. Councelor Ramen. Thank you. And through you and I'll probably take this conversation in a different direction. Um right now just wanted to first say thank you uh to staff for the report that's in front of us. Um, I don't know if we just all ate a heavy meal because this is exciting stuff and we're a little bit low energy on it today. I think um, but it is very exciting to uh, continue to work to build the music culture here in our community. I think that there's a good look back here on what's been done, where are the successes, there's a little bit more on, you know, what we can do moving forward. I really appreciate the counselor's additions because I think that makes us forward focused and and gets us potentially to where we need to go. There's some great communication that's been shared with uh I know with myself and other members of council uh from from individuals in the community who are really passionate about this topic who want to play a bigger role and who want a seat at the table. And I guess my question would be um how do we envision um how do we envision our public engagement as we move forward as we continue to grow as we grow as a city and we want to see music in every ward? How do we really envision that? because you're a small team and so putting a volunteer army behind you is probably one of the best things we can do to continue to uh expand and broaden our our approach. So that's something I've been thinking about a little as I've been um hearing from the community on this. And then um just on a similar vein um you know education and music education is really important uh to me and I think to this city and so looking at ways that we can expand and broaden uh our our especially the secondary but also elementary level um education. The challenge being I mean we don't have any influence over education here uh at council but really working as a community to strengthen that and to highlight it and make sure that we have a lot more avenues for young people to uh to get involved in music here in our city to stay and as you mentioned incubate uh that that talent here um and really note that they're supported and I know that we've got great places like the digital creative center at the Boys and Girls Club who's doing great work on this as well. Um, but just wanted to see if you wanted to add anything on those two topics. Uh, through the chair and through you. Um, I appreciate the, uh, recognition that, uh, things are happening and I think it it it really does speak to the level of work that's being done, coordinated effort that's being done across the city when the Canadian music industry has recognized London uh, as a leading city of music. Um, that's an industry noticing that's nationally. that that is a big statement. Um and I think volunteerism is a key piece right and we see that great success uh in community when community is involved. I really do think that understanding the designation is going to have to start internally with the city and I think we saw a lot of really great work done um around the green bin program when we integrated artists into what we do when we put artists centric and artists first and integrate them um into things and inform the workforce that here is here at the city of London to be champions I think that's a really strong starting point um similar in tourism we arm our front desk staff at hotels with knowledge about the city I feel the same way about this UNESCO designation and I think there's ways that we can be doing uh a better job of that uh to start uh and then I think you know to the point that you'd mentioned about uh education um that is challenging you know in this fact that we don't have influence over uh public school education but I think there are things that we can do uh we did see great success with a uh music career day teaching people about the opportunities that exist within music I always say that for every musician on stage there's 10 people that are behind the scenes uh working in music making things happen and We have a lot of really great people in this community um doing fantastic work. So I I hear what you're saying. I think there's more that we can be doing in that area. Yes, counselor. Thank you. And my last po point will just be around diversity and inclusion as we continue to grow as a diverse and welcoming community. We're seeing artists from everywhere here in our community. Um yet some artists that are from uh different parts of the world that live here in London, maybe that are grown have grown up here in London but are you know performing in different cultures and and languages and whatnot aren't feeling maybe as supported. And so I'm wondering how do we help to address that in our strategy a little bit more to allow for those artists uh to feel more connected, to feel that they have a place uh with the music office. And uh I know that there's a lot of work being done um but as you mentioned we're we're still working to develop and that brand and to share that information. So um again making that part of I think our our outreach strategy a little bit more stronger but I'm just hoping you can comment on that a little bit more. So ju just before you do Mr. Crossman. I I do uh want to draw to colleagues attention that that's part of what's in council Trussau's motion. I think we're asking Mr. Crossman to be a little bit speculative about the future before the report pack comes. So, I'm just going to ask you to keep your response brief, Mr. Crossman. Um you've got a whole report to come back to us now uh with clause C. So, I I'd really if we can keep it brief today because I know that there'll be more that you bring back in the report through the chair and through you. Um I think that is very important and it's a principle on which uh the designation takes place and the UNESCO sustainable development goals um are key to that. As you'll see at council we ensure that we bring a diversity of of cultures of uh genres of music. Uh we make sure we have gender balance in all programming that we do. Um and it can be challenging at times um when we have a lot of duplication of events that take place and genres of music. Uh so it is important to have a good cross-section. So thank you for the recommendation. Councelor. Thank you. Councelor Pelosi, I have you next. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do have a series of questions. Um, when does Mr. Crossman see this report coming back? Like when are we expecting it, Mr. Crossman? Yes. So, through the chair and through you. Um, this is our first time in this uh, you know, is a UNESCO city music. I can't speak exactly. The timelines have shifted. In the past, it has been Q3, Q4 of that year that we typically see um a report to UNESCO. Um I can seek clarification with the Canadian Commission, but often times they aren't in uh you know, they're surprised sometimes by sometime the timelines from UNESCO. 27 um at at some point towards the end of that year is what I expect. Counselor, thank you. um mindful of um the timing of the report back. Uh and hey Corey, good to see you. Um I think this is one of the interesting ones that the music offices and our tours in London which is arms length kind of council. So you have a couple counselors who serve on it. We have different information in different sessions. Um I would also note that we had Miss Finn and her team um with the big tourism linen update. Um maybe going forward be nice if Corey highlighted Mr. Crossman could highlight some things there. Um, I know beyond that board, we see great things like the trombone festival coming through town and great things they brought in. Um, it's not contained within this report, but it's music and it's related. Um, and and like there's good things happening and and we see it at the board. It' be great to see some more of that highlighted here. Um, wearing multiple hats and appreciative of councelor Trrosau's uh motion as a starting point for this discussion. certainly had different discussions in different different aspects. Um, you hear from residents that we'd love to have more music on our local streets, community activations. We hear from musicians of some are big and might get the opportunity to travel. Other ones are like, I just want more gigs here in town to showcase more music and local talent. So, it really is different people having very different uh draws and needs uh based on the music office and being fairly new as well of what council would like in that music office of where we want to put our priorities and what we'd want to see um laid out within councelor Trussau's um motion looking at number three identified sources of funding when this report comes back. I'm not sure procedurally if it's going to have to go through the tourism board and then to us because if we're looking for sources of funding, it's going to be how much, why, and if we're getting into the annual budget update next year versus the multi-year budget. So just to staff of how that's going to come as it might not just be Mr. Crossman's music office, it might involve a whole lot more. Miss Dersbear, thank you through chair. I think um those options both exist both through an annual update and also um more broadly through the multi-year budget. We've been having discussions a little bit about that in terms of how we'll move this forward. But yes, to your point uh both councelor, thank you. Uh I was just highlighting that too. As we ask for a report, we want to see more things that that might be a council conversation of how much money are we willing to put into it um or direction that we're willing to give as we ask for things coming back. Um, in number five, uh, it mentions public participation meetings, um, and community forums. Part of the focus I'm hearing is from the music community that they would like to be engaged specifically as a stakeholder. So, making sure that's on the docket and would be done. Miss Derspair, thank you through you. Um, we uh, have had many discussions over the last short period of time. I myself as a city manager have been involved in those discussions with with musicians and others as well. um and have gotten some great feedback from the community about what they're hoping for. Um and I think you can be sure that that will be part of our our activities moving forward. Counselor, thank you. Uh and I assume that would be the same intent with the sixth item on the council's list of addressing ongoing governance and organizational matters related uh to the UNESCO city of music program. Also noting that tently speaking, Mr. Crossman's team is Andrew Tourism London which has its own board and members of council that making sure that processes aren't circumvented as we have these conversations and silos don't happen and I see her nodding but I'll just ask Miss Dersbear to confirm through you chair. Yes, that's correct. Councelor, thank you. Those were I would say my procedurally crispy kind questions. Um just thank you for that and for coming before us. always excited for the the city music designation and absolutely keeping it, upholding it, making it stronger and better and bringing many people along from different sectors on this journey. Um, happy to be a small part of it uh as we serve on the tourism London board uh with the deputy mayor. Um, and just excitement I'm seeing from members in the community looking at bringing different festivals and partnering. I've certainly sent them your way, but just really looking at the grassroots movement of musicians, looking at what they can do or how to do collaborations across the pond and bring people over. So, thank you for that and some exciting things to come. Thank you, councelor Pelosa. Uh, looking for anyone firsttime speakers before I do have councelor Pribble on a second list, but looking for firsttime speakers. Councelor Trussau, thank you very much. Thank you to staff for the report and thank you for the um kind words that my colleagues have been saying today. I I really appreciate that. Um I I've done a lot of research on this and I've spent a lot of time going through the available public documents and um I I want to say and I want to say this with due respect there are there there seem to be some serious gaps in the kind of information that I'm looking for and what I'm a what I'm able to find on the public record. And I I think what we were told before about how, for example, the budget, it it's there. It's it's not it's not necessarily easy to find, but it's there. So, I'm not saying there's things are not being shared, but I I think a lot of the um points that are underneath my my six recommendations, many of them go back to the need for more transparency and the need for um the the the f the f the first point about improving alignment between public perceptions. I agree that there is a huge gap in the public perceptions and I agree that there is a huge gap in terms of people's understanding of what the purpose of this program is and how they fit into it and I think that's something that needs to be addressed throughout all of the other um considerations. I would like to see a get involved page. And I I hate to pick on the get involved staff, but it just seems if we want people to get involved, why not use a get involved page? I'm wondering if we could think about putting up a get involved page early on just to let people know that we are in in an ongoing and either of way um get getting information from people. I I don't think that would be a burden on on on city um on city design staff and I think it would be sending a signal to the community that we are very serious about getting feedback. Could I could I ask civic administration whether that is something that could be done really soon without waiting for a report back in late 26 or early 27? Miss Sters Bear. Thank you for your chair. Um, so the intention of the get involved page is for individuals or community members to be able to provide um consultative information to this process. I if that's what you're asking for, we can certainly explore it. I just want to be clear that there is a full London music office page within the tourism office uh page as well. So I think it's important for us to look at that as well as as the get involved page and I'm happy to look at both city of music page as well. Two websites two websites, right? The reason the reason I'm looking for something beyond the tourism London pages is part part of what I'm hearing in large part from the community is that this is a tourism question, but it's not just a tourism question. Yes, putting heads in beds and bums and seats and revenue and restaurant teeers and merchants is very important. But there's something that goes to the civic identity of the community that music is a public good. Music music is something that touches the soul of every individual in this city whether or not they're professional musicians or not. Uh that's why I think the music education uh is is very important. You don't have to be uh a talented musician to be interested in building up your um music music skills. It can it can come in a lot of different ways. And I I think that that gap in in the perception in in the first item is is very important. It's very important. And I think I want the community to be really excited and charged up about this program. We've gone through a growing period. We were successful in our initial application. We're not going to be applying for a second term as as I understand uh is is what this is what this is about. I want the public to feel more engaged. I sense I sense that there's a feeling of disconnection even alienation between some of the important stakeholders on the ground and the administration of this program. And again, this is not to take away from from from from from the achievements uh of this program in in in in the first term. Uh it it really goes to why I want to see that public participation um page set up. Now, I do have a particular uh question about the source of funding. I understand that we'll be hearing more about that. I have questions about the budget. I'm going to be consulting with councelor Stevenson about some of her um questions. um the sources of funding is so important because some of the things that we want to do uh including the incubation strategy which by the way you you you go through in some great detail in your report which I think is very good but council I just want to flag you've got 30 seconds okay could I ask for another two minutes please we can see if there's a mover and seconder for that councelor Hopkins is willing to Move. Councelor Stevenson is willing to second. We will have to put that to a vote. I vote yes. Council, councelor Vanir Bergen. I'll vote yes. Closing the vote. Motion carries 12 to2. Okay. Continue. on the on on the um in incubation um program which I think is brilliant and I and I I and I think uh doesn't have to be one center. It may be it may be dispersed between a lot of um different different places. You very few people know that you can go into the public library and there's a there's a music studio there. Not not a not a professional one, but they have some really good equipment that people can use. Um where are these going to go? And the one of my questions is looking at the disparity between the need for space, which everyone agrees this is going to need space, and the um the high vacancy rate. Um what are some and this this fits in this is not the first time this is being raised. It fits in with the downtown uh plan. It fits in with the economic development plan. Um these things really need to be um addressed. And um uh I also I also want to uh highlight the the the um I want to highlight the question about purpose, structure and goals. One of the things that I think is missing and I'm sure it's there but it needs to be more explicit is what is the highlevel vision? What's the purpose of this? And I I I think I I think by by having this in tourism London, it skews the purpose a little bit. And I really want to I really want to see much more emphasis on this whole notion of um m music as a community, public public good that that that touches the lives of everyone in in the community, not just not just not just the tourism industry. So I think I think with that I'm going to um close. I'll certainly have more to say at at council perhaps and I'm running out of time so thank you for the extra time but um I really think that the we have a community here as evidenced by the submission that we received just last night from Mr. Bryant which which sets forth uh a pretty wholesome strategic plan. I would think that people might want to make comments on on on that too and uh that is available on on his on his website. But I think that we have the opportunity here to really engage the community in a very positive way, which is going to help the music office. It's going to help tourism London, but it's also going to help rank and file musicians, performers. Councelor, you are at 7 minutes now and small venue holders. Thank you. Okay. Any other firsttime comments? Seeing none, I'll just ask councelor Ramen to take the chair. Let me get my timer ready. Thank you. Go ahead. Uh thank you uh madam presiding officer. So, I'm I'm supportive of what we have before us and I'm supportive of the amendment uh because it speaks to uh things like consider uh consideration of get involved public participation community forums. It doesn't say do it. It says consider these bring them back in report to us. Let us see what the options are. Um I think councelor Pelosa uh hit on a very very important point. I'm not so much interested in a public participation meeting where people stand in the gallery and talk at us for five minutes. I think a stakeholder community forum and community forums are mentioned in here which is one of the things I support. uh and stakeholders, people from the music industry can sit down not in a forum like this where we have time limits and back and forths that are points of order and those sorts of things, a formal process, but where we can have a more informal engagement with each other and a conversation about how people uh can be better involved, how we can own this identity for our city uh in a stronger way. I I think that's much more productive um than a public participation meeting. Um, I do think that a get involved page where the public can provide some input is valuable too. But I I think there's more work to be done around stakeholders in the industry, uh, stakeholders in the tourism sector, uh, who can be better involved, uh, in the process moving forward. I think we've had a good start, but I think it's a start and and where we go from here is really at the heart of why we're having this discussion today. Uh, I really like that. I will say for me again it's identify potential sources of funding. Um I you know I'm going to be blunt right now. The city doesn't have millions of dollars to buy vacant buildings to create incubator hubs and and performance spaces. We don't. So uh when we say identify potential sources of funding, I think that's going to have to include private sector partners, too. just as we have in terms of uh how Canada Life Place operates. Um how we have partnerships um with organizations not for profofit but nonetheless uh organizations like the Grand Theater in terms of how we uh work with them promote the theater in the city um in terms of how the private sector invests in film London. It's not all going to be public dollars. So, I I want to be really upfront on and on the record about this right now. If if the intent is to come and ask the city for $20 million to buy a building, I will tell you as a city council, my answer to that will absolutely be no. But I do think um that there are opportunities that need to be investigated and leveraged. Um, you know, the, uh, one of the more famous performing venues in the world is Carnegie Hall. Well, private dollars put that name on that building. It wasn't public dollars that put that name on the building. And so I think we have to look for partnerships um just as Tourism One already partners with private business owners uh across the city to develop attractions that bring people to our city. Whether that be having fun at the water slides at East Park, uh going to 100 Kellogg or the Hard Rock Cafe or or those places, those are partnerships. We don't fund them all at city hall. There might be some mattasks that get some heads in beds from our hotels, hotel years bringing people to town to visit these places. Uh but that is not direct public funding. That's a levy on a hotel visit. And so I think that there are opportunities when we look at our Matt infrastructure side on on the city hall side of things, how that might be uh used to leverage some venue spaces that attract people to our city because we have them. Uh but I want to be very cautious about creating a perception that we're going to identify all kinds of sources of funding publicly um for buildings and spaces. So that's but council trust motion doesn't say go find public dollars for this. It says identify potential sources of funding. So again, I'm supportive of that because I think it opens the door to some diverse conversations. Um I know I'm down to about 30 seconds cuz I've got my own timer going. Uh, so I'm just going to say I do appreciate the monthly updates we get from Mr. Crossman at Tourism London about the smaller events that are happening throughout the city about some of the attractions or or conferences that we get, some of the opportunities to network with our other cities. I know I just forwarded one uh that councelor Frank and councelor PL and I got about the Irish festival that's coming and a potential partnership with a creative cities uh partner in Ireland. Very excited for those sorts of things. We've got a good start. Let's grow it from here. Thank you. Returning the chair to you with no one on the speaker's list. Okay. And I do have councelor Prible for a second time around. So with no one else on the first time list, I'm going to go to councelor pribble. Thank you. And I was just talking to you about the amendment. Now I would like to talk about the report. Thank you for the report and some of the initiatives that are included are really tremendous. I'm very much uh proud of this designation. I really do believe it bring it puts our city on the world map and I do think that we need to maximize the opportunities arising from this and not just kind of do the less or minimum to keep the designation. Uh the venues that we have here and if we look at the large events or the small events they were all great. Doesn't matter if there were 50 people or 10,000 people and they were really tremendous. Uh in the last implementation plan that we received there was mentioned about the 21 to 25 action plan. Then it was mentioned about uh coordination with the UNESCO designation extending by 2 years which is till 2027. My question is now we are in 2026. What action plan are we kind of working on right right now? What's in place to maximize the opportunities? I know in the implementation plan it stated that it's going to come back quarter 427 to meet the UNESCO deadline, but I'm more interested in actually some of the things that we heard around this horseshoe are perfect example that should be included in the action plan. Can you please tell me what is the plan now currently until the 27 end of 27? Mr. Crossman. Uh through the chair and through you. Uh great question and uh the intent and plan is to continue with our goals and our focus areas that we have in place now due to the timeline uh going back redrawing and retooling really doesn't make sense. Um you you know we're seeing uh what we wanted accomplished a high level goal with this and if you're on the city of music website uh you can see the work and the designation plan there and the vision is to make a robust city of music uh and I think that starts with integration and discussion and music is now leading discussions where we're having music uh built into and integrated into our downtown plan our economic development plan. That's exactly what this designation is supposed to be doing. And so I think that that is a huge step forward for this community is that music is part of a conversation and is part of the solution. Um so we're going to continue uh over the next year and a half uh and work towards a new plan for 2027 which we're getting community feedback from. We had a community session in uh December of 2025 where we saw a lot of this and a lot of that information that's in this report uh comes from that uh meeting as well that we do need uh to continue to drive forward and as we said all the things uh about this designation the doors that it's opening and it's about the broader arts community as music's that tool that kicks the door down so to speak. Um, so I think I'll leave it at that, but the plan is to continue with what we uh have in place already for the next bit. Councelor PBLO. Okay. Thank you. I do have a followup and great in terms of strategy the vision but I do believe in that we need action plan and we need it kind of please consider to do one as soon as possible and consider the things you heard because everything that I heard around the horseshoe are very very valid points and as I said I'm tremendously proud of it have it even in the logo and city of music London in my signature on my email but we really need to spread this positive word among our city and uh as we are the only one actually in Canada with is this designation going back to what the Peter may said private funding and finding the money totally agree but not just local I really think that there's opportunity as we are the only ones in Canada to go out there looking at the provincial and national organizations private funding funding to find not just uh city or municipal funding but private as well so please consider that as well I do have one followup as well in the direction from uh to the civic administration It states their alignment with the two both downtown and the economic strategy. When we when we sorry when we talk about the when we talk about the alignment is it the alignment after the two plans come back to us or is it the alignment currently happening with those two plans? Thank you Mr. Crossman. I'll defer to Miss Data Bears. through you. Um definitely uh throughout the development of both the economic development strategy and also the downtown master plan, the concept of the work being done by the music office and other organizations in in our area has been um considered as part of of both of the development of the strategies. And so I think uh to your question uh you will see it both during the development of the strategies but also you will see it when the strategies come back to uh to council uh later this year. Um I think it's probably fair to say that it that the work that is done by the music office in support of supported by tourism London is part of our economic de development strategy and obviously there is a connection to the downtown piece as well. So you see it there both as part of a consideration currently and in the future. Councelor PBLO, thank you for that. So, I will just I know I already said it twice, but I'll leave it with a comment and again, thank you for all the initiatives very positive. Let's spread the good word throughout the city, throughout the province, throughout the world. But please do consider the action plans so we have something solid for next two years so we know what's happening next month, the month after, the month after, and how we how we are getting everyone involved. And please consider the comments you heard around the horseshoe. Thank you very much. Councelor Stevenson. Thank you. Just a followup to uh councelor Pbleser when we talk about uh the meeting that took place around getting those that feedback. Who who's invited to that meeting? Mr. Crossman. So through the chair, um this is the meeting December you're referring to. So, these are a cross-section of industry uh individuals or invited that are doing great work uh and are representing our our sector. Uh it's kind of noted. I'm not speaking to individuals, but it's noted across uh the sector. Music is more than just live. So, there's a lot of uh a good variety of people that were included in that. Good cross-section. Counselor, thank you. And just a followup, so it's by invitation only kind of thing rather than an open public meeting. through the chair. Yes, it's by it's by invitation to ensure that we have a good cross-section. I didn't want to have too many in one area. I want to make sure that we have appropriate representation across the sector. Uh also looking at diversity and inclusion as best we can and the gender balance. Okay. Thanks. There'll be things for me to look into offline in this in regards to I've said this before in terms of the whole of community. We don't know who's on it. there's no minutes versus advisory committees which is something that we do appointments and we get information on. I wondered too if it's okay this was the 21 to 25 action plan but I just wondered for me and maybe for the public who's listening what was the role of the music office in 2016 and then how did it change as we got the UNESCO city of music in 2021 Mr. Crossman through the chair. So first question uh is related to uh a public document. Um yes we have worked on a report. So we could share that to give you more insight. Um I can make that available if needed. That's a separate followup. Sharing that. Yeah. Is there I'm just not sure if there's a procedure for that or Okay. Um and then the evolution respond evolution of the music office. Um so music office uh November of 2024 is the start of the music office. Uh and the intent at that time you know was initially a 2-year contract to make this job permanent which we did. Uh it was an office of one uh after some moving around throughout the city. Uh moving over to Tourism London in uh I guess it would be 2028 2018 sorry. Um so the role has changed putting forward this proposal is in line with many cities around the world and I don't want to say the global standard but you've seen that best practice in many cities that it it is a city designation and is often led by a city individual music office working with the culture office putting forward that uh I've serving as the focal point and our cultural uh manager of cultural services is our is the co-focal point. So the role has certainly evolved and we've seen that in the growth of the music office um and the uh in in the work that we're doing and I would note that last year was an absolute benchmark year for services delivered um and that is a direct result of investment into music office councelor. Okay thanks that's great and if I can get that that'd be great but I wondered if just now can you just quickly tell me what the role was of the music office before and if it changed when we got the UNESCO So through the chair um the role of the music office is to create conditions for the music industry to thrive and grow in London. Joining international network uh music office now serves as a international representative and ambassador. And I think that if you step back and look at how music represents or the music office represents uh music uh we have the same idea across tourism London. We have a sports division who looks after that. We have uh convention planning. Um, you know, there's different roles. Our job at the music office is to speak and be that ambassador, be that beacon, uh, to bring opportunity to London and and help elevate us. Uh, and I think we've done a great job doing that and have been recognized on an international level. Uh, recognized as a global city of the year last year in a nomination uh, and in 2024 recognized as music city of the year in Canada. Councelor, thank you. About 15 seconds. Yeah. So, probably just one last question anyway. So, uh, it's less of a local initiative like it's shifted. Is that what I'm understanding? Like shifted from a a local initiative to a more international focus through the chair through the chair. No, it is both. We're still serving both. Uh, it has always been uh there has been work done internationally prior to this designation. Uh, there's just more of a focus as we now have a commitment to work internationally. Thank you, Councelor Stevenson. Uh, anyone else before we call the question? Everyone's okay with us voting on everything together. I haven't had any requests to pull anything separate. So, I'm going to ask the clerk to open the vote. Closing the vote. Motion carries. 14 to zero. Thank you, colleagues. We do have another item for direction. Before we do that though, I will ask Vice Chair Ramen if you can just report out on the closed session. Thank you. I'm happy to report out that progress is made for the items of which you went in camera. Thank you. And that brings us to item 4.2. 2 uh which is with respect to uh the special meeting of the shareholder of London and Middle Sex Community Housing for Articles of Incorporation update and the CHC affordable housing loan housing fund loan agreement. Um so that is now uh the item that we'll be dealing with and uh I'm going to look to see if we got a mover in a second or put the staff recommendation on the floor and then we can go into discussion. Councelor Mallister, Councelor Hillier. Thank you. So that's on the floor. Uh we do have uh Mr. Chisum and Mr. Krill and Mr. Candia here from uh LMCH. Uh and we can also uh go to Mr. Murray uh or Miss Barbone uh for questions on this uh if needed. So, looking to see if there's any questions or comments uh on the special shareholder articles of incorporation update and the CMHC affordable housing fund loan agreement. Council Trussau. Yes. Um through the chair, let me start by saying I have no objection to this. I'll be I'll be voting for um the measure. I'm not going to be offering any amendments. I do want to express a concern and that is I'm in full support of the efforts that are being made in the Southdale um project. I remain concerned though about the um as demonstrated in our last asset management plan. I remain concerned about the conditions in the rest of the building. And when I when I see that we're going out and getting this type of um funding, um that really makes me feel good because one of the things I tried talking about uh at at the at the last shareholders meeting was the need to um maybe finance refinance some of our buildings. My my specific question is to what degree are are any of these funds going to be available to um assist with the regeneration of the other buildings particularly those that are in very poor and poor condition. You're going to have to give me a moment here. Councelor Trusso. Councelor Trussau, I'm going to have to see if you can narrow the scope of the question. I want to re reinforce for everyone actually. This is a special meeting of the shareholder. We're only dealing with the item that's specifically on the agenda, which is the CMHC loan agreement and the minor change uh in language that are really it's really a housekeeping change in language to comply with the new CMHC language that's being used by the federal government. I'm interpreting your question as being asked about how LMCH will be allocating other funds which is not related to the CMHC loan which is very specific in terms of how it can be spent. So I'm going to ask if you can reframe your question in a way that meets the purpose of the special meeting which is the approval of the CMHC dollars. Um, thank I I appreciate that opportunity. However, I'm going to stand on my question and if it's out of order, you may rule it's out of order. I'll be very disappointed. I think that members of the public want to understand, especially when we're going out and getting this additional funding, how it's going to affect the very bad conditions in the other properties. And I think it's a legitimate question to ask whenever they're before us. I'm going to suggest perhaps a framing that might help you here. I I think what would be in order to ask rather than blanket ruling this out of order would be to ask if this if approval of this loan frees up municipal funds that have been allocated to CM LMCH to address other concerns within the portfolio if it's specific to this loan freeing up municipal funds for other purposes and we can't get into the specifics of the other purposes, but you could ask if it was freeing up municipal dollars to address if this loan frees up municipal dollars for other purposes. Um, yes, that that's a that's a good way of framing the question. It was my intention to frame it pretty much that way in terms of this infusion of new money coming into the system, but um I won't repeat what you just said. I'll just say yes. I'll ask that. Okay, let's see if uh Mr. Chisum or a member of his team might be able to address um how this uh loan impacts municipal dollars. Thank Yeah. All right. Thank you. And through the chair. Um there is I guess the the short answer to this is the receipt of the uh funding from Canon Mortion Housing Corporation frees up previously allocated city funds to do more regeneration community regeneration work across LMCH. Uh and that is the the request contained in the report. Um, so that is the intent is that we make the funding that's already provided go further and improve and increase our our housing across the city. Councelor Truss out. Yes, that's that's that that's fine because I think some sort of reallocation of existing uh funds is very badly needed. I don't see the conditions improving to the point where we're up to fair, much less good in terms of uh our next uh next report. So, I want to encourage you to do as much as you can to in consultation with the tenants um do what needs to be done to improve their living conditions. Thank you. Any other speakers? Seeing none, I will ask Oh, councelor Mallister. Uh thank you through the chair. I just want to make a quick comment on this. Um as was said like these funds are integral in terms of continuing the regeneration um of LMCH. Um yes there are some older buildings but as we have previously identified um these are old buildings to begin with. Many of them are there in their life. Um I don't want to speak to that cuz that's not why we're here. Um but this money will continue the good work we've seen. We've got the first uh housing built in 50 years. Um that's a huge monumental thing that I think we should all take pride in that we are seeing um that investment and you can see the dollars here that we're reinvesting and getting more housing built. Um so I encourage my colleagues to support this and this will continue the good work that we've already seen. Thank you. Thank you councelor Mallister. I have no one else on the speaker list so I'm going to ask the clerk to open the vote. closing the vote. Motion carries 14 to zero. Thank you, colleagues. And uh thank you to our guests from LMCH. Uh we do have another item to uh dispense with, but uh if you need to take your leave of us, feel free to go ahead and do that. Uh of course, if you want to attend the rest of our meeting and hear the other scintillating items on the agenda, you're welcome to stay. And colleagues, that does bring us to deferred matters and additional business. Uh we have one item uh that is the assessment growth funding allocation from the consent agenda. Uh there was a request for delegation status from Mr. Butler. Um so I'm going to look to see if there's a mover. There is from councelor Stevenson and I believe councelor Trussell was also willing to move. So uh move and second the delegation uh request. So we will ask the clerk to open the vote to approve the delegation. Closing the vote. Motion carries 14 to zero. Thank you, colleagues. Uh Mr. Butler, if you would like to uh approach one of the microphones, uh now that we've got your delegation status approved, uh I know you have spoken to us uh in the past on other items, so I know you're familiar with this. But when you're ready, if you can just give us your name and you have 5 minutes and I'll give you a wave with about 30 seconds to go. Uh that's awesome. I I just want to thank uh uh Councelor Lewis for uh the welcome mat and uh the two counselors that approved me speaking. Uh I guess the word is for opening the door. Uh in that sense uh there's a bit of a sense of urgency I wanted to pay my respects to uh with the approval of the last budget which was our 226 budget in January sometime. Uh the sense of urgency from council and I think city staff to move that forward with uh moving it down to closer to uh something that is within the Bank of Canada inflation range has been awesome. And uh from talking to friends this week, uh we're seeing how urgent it is to move that forward, that sense of urgency uh to 2027. Uh I mean, a couple of comments came back to me from friends that our assessment our assessment rate on our taxes is now over 1.6%. And it kind of surprised me and I paid my interm yesterday. So, we're we're now top five in Ontario and I know that's balanced with housing prices, everything else. But to address that sense of urgency, I wanted to talk about a few things and then that move move that into assessment value growth a little bit. Um, I see things a little differently. I see uh some tremendous opportunities for this council, for people from the public, and for city staff. Uh, I look at things as a three-legged stool. I see a great deal of healthy cash flow in this city. The unfortunate part is that most of that cash flow is outside of the budget process. It's outside of the consent process and it's outside of council's ting. Now, one of the one of the one of the legs of the stool, I guess that's the way I want to put it, is the ask growth piece, and I'll come to that in a second. The second leg is the budget surplus which is about 4% pretty regularly every year and it should be on over a billion dollar budget. And then the third item is really the interest on investments earned for our reserve funds which are sitting about $400 million. Those three legs of the stool add up to about $60 million a year. That's a very positive thing when you think that our our our city staff or our taxpayer based budget is what 910 million. So with that I want to start with the ask gross piece. Right now we have a very unique situation in London. London is the only city in Ontario that I can identify that has a policy and has the way that we do things. Every other city takes their assessment value growth, reduces their operating budget by that, works through their own little process with respect to the things that they want to address in growth and go from there. In London, we all know what we do here. We basically we the other cities also make that part of the public budget process right up front in terms of things going on so the council and the budget can look at things and say are these growth things that we want to support and go from there. So the second part of that is really that we have another piece here that that is very unique to London as well. Uh with the with the exception of Brownfield uh special DC charges, none of the other cities at this moment really support anything that we're doing with paying developers in terms of the grants that are associated with that. So there's a I think a simile to look at there is I'm going to high school and you're taking my lunch money with the ask gross piece. I get something that no other taxpayer gets in Ontario. Everybody else gets that piece. So my lunch money's gone there and you're asking me to pay supper for the developers here in all these special areas to go there. And when you look at that, that's a real conflict. I can't support, it's very hard to support the 4,000 homes that we want to do because I have to pay for supper, too. Those two pieces together are about 4%. So, okay, we'll go from there. I guess what I'm asking for is that toxic combination and the ask growth piece. I'd like to get this all aligned with the city budget and make it part of the public process so that you folks and I can have some say in where that money gets spent because it's about $60 million. And the second piece I'd like to ask today for I know that we have a priority to pay off debt. I don't see any reason that we can't use the interest earns on our reserve funds to do that as opposed to the ask growth of the other piece. I don't see any reason at all. That's what I would do in my family budget. So today, I can't see any reason at all I shouldn't be asking you for $2.9 million reflected back to taxpayers so that it carries over into next year. So I just like to leave it at that. That's where we're at right now. And that's that's out of five minutes. So I gonna ask you to stop there. But thank you for your presentation today. Okay. So we've received the delegation. We also have a piece of correspondence um to receive as well. Do we have a mover and a seconder for the staff uh report the recommendation? Councelor Mallister and Councelor Hillier. Okay, so that's on the floor. So now we can start a speakers list on that. Councilor, thank you through through you. I just wondered if staff does have an answer in term in terms of uh the question that uh Mr. Butler posed around London being an outlier in terms of how this uh assessment growth revenue is handled. Mr. Murray or Miss Burbone? Mr. Murray. Uh thank you through you uh Mr. Chair. So I I would uh say that yes in fact uh what what London does in terms of our assessment grow growth policy is quite unique uh amongst municipalities for sure. Uh I think that uh is done that way though intentionally. uh it has intentionally been carved out as a uh separate policy and a separate process uh in order to ensure that we are continuing to fulfill the growth pays for growth uh concept and principle behind this. So um you know the the uh thought that assessment growth revenues uh could simply be um taken into the budget uh without the corresponding growth costs that go along with them I think is uh is a faulty argument uh unfortunately I think uh you know at the end of the day there is costs associated with a growing and expanding city and whether those costs uh are dealt with uh through the budget process or through the assessment growth process as we do. Uh at the end of the day, all Ontario municipalities are going to be faced with those costs of a growing city. Uh we just deal with that uh through a separate process that specifically aligns the assessment growth funding, the cost or sorry the revenue that comes from the growth uh to fund those those costs of growth. Councelor. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I find it interesting because um in the policy the way that we do it, it's it's all uh delegated to staff um versus council looking at it, I guess. So, my question, my follow-up question be when did we change uh to this this method of doing things? Mr. Murray or Miss Barbone? Uh thank you through you, Mr. Chair. I don't have that specific date. It's been a number of years though. I believe it uh probably corresponds to right around the time we shifted to a multi-year budgeting cycle uh roughly and that was 2016. So we've been at least a decade at this point uh I think of of doing it this way. Councelor, thanks. I'm going to leave it there for now. Okay. Looking for other speakers. Mayor Morgan Uh yes, I'll say a few words. So, first off, I want to thank staff for the report. Um I also want to say I I agree with your assessment of the business cases. Um I think you're properly allocating the cost of growth with the the proceeds of the new taxes that come from growth. Um you know, the um the delegate said, are these growth, you know, that we could put this in the budget process and decide whether these are the growth that we want to support? Well, I don't see how we have a choice but to support these things. You build a new subdivision, you've got to provide garbage collection. You build a new subdivision, you need traffic signalization, you need snow plowing, you need all of the things that we start to allocate the cost of growth towards. And so, you know, we could put that in the budget process. Uh, and we could decide not to do those things. And we've seen other municipalities decide not to pay for the types of things that they should be paying for associated with growth because there's always a temptation to say, "Hey, well, we've got this cash. Let's use it for some other priority that we have at that time." But you got to you have to actually have to pay those bills, right? The cost of growth are actually there. I think we've actually done some really smart things with assessment growth over the time we've we've been uh doing this. I I'll I'll say a number of years ago when we built a new community facility, we took care of the life cycle maintenance costs right at the time of assessment growth. You build a new community center, you know, you're going to have to maintain it over the lifetime. You set aside some permanent tax dollars at the start, you're not going to have that infrastructure gap growing because you didn't do it. We've done things like that with the assessment growth policy in the past. Have other municipalities done that? No, probably not. Is it a really smart financial thing to do? 100%. So I think what we want to do whether it's delegated whether it's assessment growth policy however we want to do it I think we need to continue to make really smart financial decisions with the actual costs of growth uh and the assessment growth policy is one of the ways to do that. Now the other thing I like about the policy is we use it to make sure that some years we expect we might have a surplus some years we expect we might have a deficit because growth isn't always a linear thing. So what do we do? We carry some of that forward each and every year if we need to or we draw from the carry forward if we have uh if we're short. And what we do on a one-time basis with that money is take care of a couple of things. We know we have needs on paying down some debt and putting some money towards the infrastructure gap reserve fund. Again, two really smart things that actually pays dividends later. Um and from time to time we've also, you know, looked at it and said, do we have a systemic surplus in the assessment growth? Do we project growth to be relatively flat and stable? And even in previous years, we have done things like spun some off to permanent tax relief in a small amount in a responsible way when the time was right. What we know now is that we have growth costs to pay for and we know that this city is growing quite fast. So allocating assessment growth dollars to the cost of growth, I think is responsible. And again, I continue to support that idea that let's take care of some life cycle maintenance things when we can at the time that we build a new community facility by allocating those dollars up front. So again, I think staff have done a good job on the uh assessment of the assessment growth business cases. I want to also commend two organizations for submitting and getting assessment growth business cases approved. The London Public Library and the London Transit Commission. You know, this is something that council has been asking for. We recognize that as the city grows, the need for library service collections grow in the city. It's a reasonable business case to have in assessment growth. We recognize that as the city grows, transit demands grow in the city. And so, for the first time, we see the transit commission actually expanding growth related routes in the city with assessment growth dollars. Rather than hitting us on the property tax supported budget, you know, next fall, like we know the city's grown. These new tax dollars have come in. those people who are paying those new tax dollars can pay for some of the growth, some of the cost of the growth that they're generating by coming into the city. So, uh I support the sta staff uh report before us. I always appreciate Mr. Butler's engagements on this. I I think he's a smart guy. He's got uh ideas that uh I don't necessarily disagree with, but I can say I do actually like and support this process even though it's relatively unique in the province because I think it's done very well for the city and very well for London taxpayers. Thank you, Mayor Morgan. I have councelor Mallister next. Uh thank you and through the chair. Uh yeah, just echoing uh many of the comments the mayor said. Um I agree with a lot of the business cases in here. Nice to see the library. Uh I think it's also very important to highlight transit. It's really great to see them in the assessment grow uh growth with a business case. Um there's a lot of areas uh in terms of servicing that we definitely need uh online and it's great to see LTC come forward and um you know get those areas serviced um whether just speaking kind of in the general area around my um board um great to see you know some side for sure it's an area where a lot of people are saying well you know big residential growth need some buses out there um or whether it's industrial um I have um you know sliver of veterans scanlin um well served for W 2. W 3's got some good service too, but we're seeing a lot of growth out that way and those industrial jobs that are driving our economy 100%. We need to see those services online and expanded. So, I'm very happy to see within these business cases. Um there's very specific areas that we've been asking for for a while to see uh those um those services come online. Obviously recognizing it'll take a bit of time, but I think this is the appropriate way to go. Um, as we said, growth pays for growth and I think these are areas we're seeing a lot of that growth and we need to um have those business cases to support uh the services in those areas. So, thank you and I'm supportive of this. Councelor Ramen, thank you and through you. So, um just wanted to say uh thank you for the report. Um I do find it helpful to um be able to see the projects outlined and costed, but I did have some questions because um some of the projects uh that are listed in the assessment growth uh package, especially related to parks, um are for improvements that we approved in other budgets as well. So I'm just wondering how do we then uh divide and allocate? Um, so for instance, the urban park at Kent Park, um, there's a $40,000 estimated value, which is the highest amount that's included in that park's budget. Um, and yet we also had that funding in in the mayor's parks and initiative as well. So just wanted some clarification on that, Mr. Murray. Uh, thank you through you, Mr. Chair. Uh, yes. So the uh specifically as it pertains to the the parks items here, I think it's important to note that these are the operating costs associated with these parks. So uh what you would have seen as part of the uh the previous budget approval uh and specifically the parks uh improvement fund I believe was the terminology that was used for it. Uh that was used to fund the capital upfront costs of constructing uh those those parks. uh any new uh growth related infrastructure that comes on board of course though has operating costs to operate it and maintain it on on an ongoing basis and that's where uh through the assessment growth process those costs are uh picked up and funded councelor thank you and through you so this funding line is the operating for that park so I can anticipate $40,000 will be spent to operate that park as I'm as it moves forward annually And then for the multi-use path between um the Hide Park Road and Coronation Drive um that supports Hide Park Village Green, which is wood chips right now. Um I can anticipate that that's $5,000 worth of maintenance on on that particular path annually, just to be clear, Mr. Murray. Uh through you, Mr. Chair, that is correct. Yes, councelor. Thank you. Uh that's very helpful and I just had a question about um the policing component that's included in the assessment growth uh business case. Um I want to say thank you to uh London police for providing the information here. I find it very helpful that we continue to include the benchmarking numbers that are uh for the province and and for uh the country in that document. I'm wondering though um do we set or not we but I guess the police board do they is there an internal target for what they're looking to benchmark against going forward? Um just we've got those two numbers that appear in the assessment growth report repeatedly each year. But I'm just wondering is the target uh to align with the provincial target? Is the target to align with the national target? I'm just wondering if someone can help me understand that. I'm not sure if our finance team can comment to the police metrics, but we'll go to Mr. Murray. Superintendent Harvey. Oh, sorry. And we do have Superintendent Harvey with us on on Zoom. So, uh, Mr. Murray, did you want to start and then I can go to Superintendent Harvey? Sure. I I will start and then we can pass it along to, uh, our our folks from, uh, London Police. Um so uh as it uh relates to the recent uh requests over the last few years uh the the police have try been trying to close the gap um back to what the uh police to population ratio was approximately in 2010. So approximately 15 years ago. So, they've been trying to get back to uh to that uh metric uh and have been uh successful in closing uh that gap uh over the last few years. Uh I will though turn it over to Superintendent Harvey to speak to going forward what the intention would be in terms of what metric they're tracking towards. Welcome Superintendent Harvey. And go ahead when you're ready. Uh thank you Mr. Lewis sir. Just confirming you can hear me. Okay. You are coming through loud and clear sir. Thank you. Yeah, I I'll just comment and support what Mr. Maria suggested there uh through this ask. It's really an attempt to maintain our current uh police to population ratio and I would suggest that there is not a specific ratio uh Mr. Ramen that's that's been specifically identified within the organization and currently we're just trying to maintain our ratios within this uh this 156 number. uh currently it's not the the police to population ratio is an important measure but it it certainly doesn't tell the whole story. So we have to be we have to be guarded and cautious in in in setting a target in regards to that number. But at the current time I would suggest that just maintaining this 156 is what we're what we're shooting for right now. Thank you. Thank you superintendent counselor. Thank you and through you. So just with respect to uh the numbers that are provided for the police um one of the things I'm trying to understand is with the assessment growth if it the the point is for growth to pay for growth um in some of the cases in the report it highlights areas where um I'm just wondering if that growth of the area was considered in the targeted approach of where that funding is going to be used. So for instance, it talks about the core area. Um, and I'm just wondering uh how that assessment's made around for instance in subdivisions and areas where we are seeing growth and maybe we're hearing that we're not seeing police. So I'm just how does that balance out when we're talking about assessment growth? Uh, thank you Mr. Lewis. Per you sir. So I'm going to suggest that the m majority of our resources are really uh deployed on a on a city-wide basis. So yes, there are patrol resources that are assigned within specific sectors of the city, but overall the majority of these resources that that would be created through this through this process uh are really resources that would be assigned on a citywide basis and not to specific areas or neighborhoods. Thank you, councelor Thank you. Um I'll leave it at that and follow up offline uh with the police. Um I guess one of the things I hear from my residents is that our areas in in the northwest part of the city are growing and as they continue to grow, they'd like to see more police presence. And I think the police are trying to address that with even uh the opening of a location at Masonville uh place. But I do think that um more traffic enforcement for instance is one of the things that's mentioned in tier. Um I think that that's an area that definitely needs uh more support in our in our city and especially in um areas where people are uh continuing to to uh to complain about not seeing police and that's what I was hoping that I would see a bit more of in the assessment growth as well. Thank you, Councelor Ramen. I have councelor Hopkins next. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I do have a comment on the uh assessment growth business case from London Transit. I'm very very supportive um of um uh growth, paying for growth, and and I'm really pleased to see this. Mr. Butler, I always appreciate your comments. Um, you always make me think to to uh understand where we are as a city and and and what we're doing. Um, but I am a big supporter of growth paying for growth representing W 9, but subdivisions. We have two um routes uh for 2027 in this assessment growth uh business case. Uh two subdivisions that right now people have to work walk about 2 kilometers to get to the nearest bus stop. So uh really um appreciate seeing um uh these service hours uh coming into new areas uh through you. Mr. Chair, I do have a question uh around uh the 50% cap gap um on the capital infrastructure reserve fund that we will be putting money into. Do we have a report coming to us? I I'm I'm kind of interested in knowing where that uh report is and when we can expect an update on it. Mr. Murray. Uh thank you and through you Mr. Chair. I believe uh the counselor might be referring to uh assessment growth case 16 which is the uh asset management uh case. I believe um that uh that is directly linked and a direct result in fact of our corporate asset management plan and policy that uh includes a specific uh recommendation uh on actually utilizing the the assessment growth mechanism to capture the uh the future life cycle renewing costs associated with the growth infrastructure that we uh that we add to the system each year. So that's a a direct recommendation out of that plan. Uh the uh the most recent uh corporate asset management plan I believe was from uh 2023. Uh and there are annual updates that come to uh council uh each year to kind of provide an update on on that and how uh progress is being made against that. Uh maybe I'll turn it over to Miss Barone in terms of when that uh next update will be coming. Yeah, thank you through the chair. So I just add to that the team is actually working on the updated capital asset management plan currently as we speak for the city of London. Um that's on track and in progress and uh so one of the things earlier on the agenda today was the policy. We had some tweaks to update that to finalize the preparation and uh that should be coming to council early next year um with the full completion of all the city of London assets to determine where we stand with respect to the infrastructure gap. So, um that's certainly a great deal of work that the team is undertaking and then that will set the stage for um looking at where we are and how that will ultimately inform our next multi-year budget. Yeah, thank you for that. I think it's a really important report for council to have. I I do have concerns that gap is growing and how we're going to be able to maintain that. So with uh this amount going into the uh reserve fund is really the last time we'll have an opportunity as this council to really deal with with with that fund. Uh so um thanks for the update and uh thank you. Thank you councelor Hopkins. Looking for any other firsttime speakers. Uh seeing none uh then I will go back to councelor Stevenson uh for a second time. Thank you. Um just to follow up on the change in policy through you to staff. Is it possible to get the link to uh the staff report where that policy changed and had the rationale just sent to us via email? Mr. Murray. Uh three. Mr. I just need some some clarification. Is the counselor referring to the most recent uh updates to the policy which would have been as part of the council policy review uh in 2025 or the original shift to the assessment growth uh policy? Thank you. The original shift through through the chair? Uh yes, Mr. Chair, we can certainly do that. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, because I'm curious to see that. Um you know, usually if it's such a great thing, I'm surprised no other municipalities have followed us. You know, there's that expression about, you know, you're leading if you look behind and people are actually following. Um, in the business case number 17 about the human resources, I just wanted to confirm it talks about the growth in the city between 2022 and 2024. And I just want to confirm that that's 2 years, not 3 years. Is it everything after like is it for 23 and 24 or is that actually for 3 years? Oh, Mr. Murray. Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm just uh pulling up my notes here. Yes. So that is in fact uh for two years uh covering the years 2023 and 2024 counselor. Uh thank you. That's what I thought and thank you for confirming that. So it says that there were 343 uh new positions over the course of the two years and I just wanted to confirm I'm assuming the police is the only one where the employees where they have their own HR department it wouldn't be factored in. So are these employees of uh that's the growth in city of London employees not including LPS? Was that Mr. Murray or Mr. Parody? Mr. Murray. Uh thank you. Three you Mr. Chair. Uh that is uh city of London employees. That does not include the police. That does not include uh agencies, boards and commissions generally. So that is strictly uh city employees. Um, I will note as well that uh the the timing is is interesting given that uh 2022 and and for that matter I guess 2021 and 2020 uh would be uh artificially shall we say um uh fluctuating I guess based on the uh staffing and the restrictions that were in place in those years due to uh due to the pandemic. So uh you know our staffing levels uh for certainly 2020 and 2021 and even 2022 for that matter uh were affected by what services we could offer in terms of um you know for example uh some of the uh the recreation programming that we provide uh you know some of that programming couldn't be delivered as an example. Uh so we wouldn't have hired uh for example the casual staff to support that in 2020 2021 and 2022. So if you're looking at uh personnel data, uh it's just important to note that those years might be slightly affected uh or in some cases not so slightly affected by uh the the pandemic restrictions. Councelor. Okay. Thanks. Although I'm assuming that this growth isn't that bounce back. This is like an actual expansion due to the city getting bigger. Mr. Murray. Uh thank you through you, Mr. Chair. So uh the the increase would be referencing the headcount as of 2022 versus the headcount as of 2024. So there there would be some of that uh bounce back uh as well as the growth uh incorporated in that as well. Um ultimately uh though the the resources that were in place in 2022 to service the uh the staff uh compliment at that point in time uh were the same resources that were uh still in place in 2024 with that increase in compliment. Counselor. Okay. Thank you. Um the other question I had on this one was the average salary for the HR. It's showing 124,441 per full-time employee does seem a little high just from somebody who doesn't know. Uh so I just wondered too why we're using average personnel costs. I would have assumed uh it would be front line like lower level rather than average. Mr. Murray uh through you Mr. Chair just important to note on those costings as well. It's not just salary that would be inclusive of fringe uh cost as well. So the actual salary rates uh would be uh would be much lower. Um the uh the calculation on each case is very much case case specific in terms of how they determine the uh the the metric and the and the costing and then the ultimate uh request uh that is put forward. uh in this case they've uh simply used the the average costing uh as a whole inclusive though of fringe benefits. Counselor. Okay. Thanks. I've got some questions about increases in employees and that kind of thing, but I'll do it between now and council. And so that's all I have for now. Thank you. Uh Council Ramen, can you take the chair for me? Thank you. I have the chair. Go ahead. Uh thank you madam presiding officer and uh just through you uh to staff I I'm really happy with this report and a couple of other counselors have said this already but especially that we've taken a look at the metrics that we need to look at for the library and transit. I know in the past we've been told doesn't work. We don't have the right metrics to apply to equate it to growth. When I look at where we are on transit and the innovation uh park service expansion out there, the GAP and Andreani Pasta have opened on that service route. That's two major new employers uh who have employees who need transit service. This is exactly the kind of assessment growth case that I think is applicable to the transit service. And so, uh, certainly, uh, both to, uh, the LTC, including those at the Horseshoe who are on that board, um, and and to our finance staff, I'm really glad that we could find a way to bring this forward. It matters. And transit service, and I have been saying this for years, it cannot just be about uh, transit service around Western and Fanshot has to include employment sector areas. This does that. It matches perfectly because when we talk about assessment growth, it's not just new residential growth. It's industrial growth as well. We've had two major new employers who are now paying industrial property taxes who who have contributed to this assessment growth and it's going to provide transit service. That's exactly what I do expect to see. Um increasing digital uh collections at the library. Same thing. very supportive of this because as the city grows, we're going to see no matter what part of the city people are in, we're going to see an increased use in uh digital library borrowing. Uh so I think that that's a very positive thing. Um I'll save my rant about federal government and digital copyright borrowing legislation problems and all of those other things for another day. Uh perhaps it's something councelor Trussau and I can commiserate over a pint over someday after work, but it's this is exactly where a library assessment growth case makes sense. Increase the digital collections so that folks in the new areas have access to library borrowing too. Uh so very very happy to see those two. I agree with the mayor too. the garbage collection, the snow plowing, uh the grass cutting in in parks and new subdivisions. I hear where Mr. Butler's coming from. At the same time, I don't need those in a budget business case. We have to do them as new neighborhoods come on board. I think there's some argument to be made about I'm particularly interested in the comments about um debt repayment and interest from reserve funds and things like that. I think there's there's perhaps some other discussions to consider in the future around that. But I do think from the assessment growth uh piece, the nuts and bolts stuff, the the police, the parks, the snow plowing, the garbage collection, um we have to do it. So, let's not complicate the budget process by putting a whole bunch of new business cases for new subdivisions into the budget case. Let's just do it out of the assessment growth that those residences have contributed. Um, even when we talk about the staffing increase, um, that councelor Stevenson mentioned, uh, I know in 2022 as we were reopening from CO, I mean, mine was a word that benefited from a new community center. It had no staff before because it wasn't open. And when it did open, it had a small number of staff and it's only grown to become one of the busiest community centers in the city. And that means lots of casual and part-time staff as well as some full-time staff. Uh as well as lots of calls from myself to Miss Smith about various questions. Um but overall it's been a fantastic site for the community and that needs staff to run it. Uh and that's not the only facility that's had to add staff just as a matter of our growth. Um, when you think about all of those processes that we've had um, in terms of meeting our housing target, that requires planning staff and building division staff to to get those applications processed and through. Um, so those things are are just, like I said, it's the nuts and bolts thing. Um, but I really want to express my genuine appreciation and really happiness to see the transit and the library growth cases here because I think and I I said it during the original multi-year budget and I know that not everybody agreed with me, but this is where they should have always been. So, I'm going to end it there. Thanks for the work. um always open to discussions moving forward, but I think for this um particular year of assessment growth, we've got a really good set of business cases here that are absolutely um something we should all be supportive of. Thank you. Returning the chair to you, no one on the list. Okay. Going to look to my left. Going to look to my right. Councelor Stevenson. Just one quick question. And I hope I'm just seeing this one on the human rights uh that we've got four full-time employees and there's a need to hire an additional full-time employee for workplace harassment investigations. Uh so I just wanted an update from staff on that as to why we need another full-time person. Mr. Parody. Yeah. Uh through the chair. So uh three of three are investigators. We have our our manager, three investigators, and we have a coordinator. Uh we've been uh right now we need the extra investigator. Uh city grows, corporation grows. We have, you know, counting everybody all in. We're over 4,000 of them uh employees and we've also taken on a training component component of the respectful workplace policy across the corporation to all thousands of employees. uh we have our uh investigation side and then we assist uh the other uh human resources and workplace violent uh prevention procedure under emergency management security. We want to make sure we can give uh all as much attention to in the investigation side as we need to. An investigation can take up to 90 days when we if you get multiple investigations plus we're doing training. Uh it has taken its toll with the size of the corporation as as it's growing. So we had to put an assessment growth case in in order to build that team where we can manage it across the corporation better. Counselor. Okay. Seeing nothing further I'm going to ask the clerk to councelor Purbal. Thank you for the chair to the staff. I do have a question regarding the LTC. I do see the uh issue currently are the additional buses. So for buses for the capital not financially but f the delivery but if somehow this capital or the buses would be delivered earlier would there have to be in terms of the budget requirements any changes through this assessment to start actually earlier than 2028? Thank you Mr. Murray. Uh through you Mr. Chair. Unfortunately, the lead time on buses is uh is extremely problematic. Uh it is uh at last I heard uh 18 months plus uh to to receive buses. So uh re realistically we are uh in all likelihood looking at uh 2028 before that new service can be implemented. Having said that though uh the funding will be in place uh through the the approval of this assessment growth to initiate uh that service once those buses are available and in place. Thank you. So I do have followup. If a miracle would happen and the buses would arrive earlier and because this is the assessment for this year, would we have the funds available to start these four prior to 2028 if the buses were delivered earlier? Councelor Perval, I I'm going to say two things on that. One, it's highly speculative to ask our staff about if a miracle happens. And second, LTC would have to address that operationally first. If they couldn't address it internally, they would come to the city. I'm not going to ask staff to speculate on whether LTC would have to come back or not. That would be an internal LTC matter first. Okay. Thank you. So, I'll have a follow-up question. Is the money available now? Councelor Prible, I'm still going to rule that out of order. We don't have the service is not ready to go. So, it's asking staff whether the money is available now is not in order. the money is not being sought now because the operational standup of the service can't be done now. So I'm not going to ask staff to to respond to that. Okay. Truly don't understand the reasoning for that because I'm just asking this is the assessment. Now if it's approved today, if it's approved by the council, I really don't see how it's out of the order to ask if the money is available. Mr. Murray. Uh let let me uh take a shot here, Mr. Chair, at explaining how this will uh will work. Um so what what you're approving here is a permanent increase of a little over $2 million for uh LTC. um for the first two years or the first two years of that uh $2.1 million per year that will be used to fund uh the buses uh the actual capital cost of the buses. Uh subsequent to that uh it will convert back to operational funding uh so that those routes uh can then be operated using those buses that have just been bought. So, uh, it is permanent ongoing funding that will, uh, be available to pay for the operating costs once those buses are here. Counselor, thank you for that answer. No more questions. Okay. I'm going to ask the clerk to open the vote. Councilor, close the vote. Yes. Closing the vote. Motion carries 14 to zero. Okay, that concludes our agenda, colleagues. So, I'm going to look for a motion to adjurnn. Moved by councelor Ramen and seconded by councelor Hopkins. We can do this one by hand. All those in favor. Yes. Motion carries. Thank you everyone.