Sound check. 1 2 3 Good morning. As we have quorum present, I'd like to call this meeting of audit, finance, and administration committee to order. Please remember that all electronic device are to be switched to a non-audible function during committee meetings. online. We have councelor Moren Wilson, councelor Clark, councelor Kretch in uh council chambers, councelor Wang, councelor Alex Wilson, and um we'll move on. Approval of the agenda. Move and second to approve the agenda as presented. Councelor Wang, councelor Alex Wilson. Any objections or anything? Um if there are no objections, consideration of item 8.5 AUD21004F will be deferred after close session. Anything else? Not seeing anything. Uh, show of hands, please. And that carries. Thank you. Declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of the committee members? Seeing none, we'll move on to the adoption of minutes of the previous meeting, 5.1 September 3rd, 2026, and 11.1 closed session minutes September 3rd, 2026. Mover and second to adopt the open and closed minutes of the previous meeting. Councelor Cretch, Councelor Wang. Any discussion on the adoption? Seeing none, show of hands and that carries. Thank you. Moving on to delegations. Members are reminded that questions of the delegations are for clarification purposes only and not for debate. A note to our delegates, you have 5 minutes to complete your delegation. 6.1 Hafi Hussein respecting Ontario Works value for money audit eligibility verification against assessment role impact and PL list elections Ontario. This is a virtual delegation. Mr. Shusin, whenever you're ready, please begin. You have five minutes. >> All right. And I was just going to ask the clerk if they could um share the presentation. >> Yep. We're going to do that now. There we go. All >> m Thank you. All right. Um good. Good morning members of the AFNA committee. Um, as this is the last AFNA committee for this council term, I wanted to bring a very important issue um to you in regards to um something that may be discussed in the next term of council is the on the current Ontario works value for money audit. Um this is new information only that I've discovered throughout um providing information to the auditor general in regards to eligibility and the scope of the audit in it comes to eligibility as well as the collection of overpayments. Um throughout my research and discovery um I've come across some eligibility criteria in which um there's publicly databases available that are available to the city um that can continue to confirm ongoing eligibility when it comes to Ontario works. One of the things that I discovered is the impact assessment role. Um I did provide an assessment role. There's a data sharing agreement that the city clerk um um office is aware of where EMPAC can um provide the assessment role um for property owners as well as um tenants um in regards to eligibil um location of residents and living in prior residents. Um, this is important because this is one form of way in which the city can use a publicly available database in which taxpayers pay for like based on my research, it's 11 million that we pay for EMPAC that we can access the database to verify property owners when it comes to leases as well as tenants um or previous owners and addresses. Um, in addition, the assessment role contains school support. So if someone does register their children for school in the delegation package, there's an there's a form called an application for direction for schoolboard support in which the school board will forwarded that to EMPACT to update the assessment role. In addition, when it comes to eligibility verification tools that the city does have in their toolbox, um I'm not sure if the Municipal Elections Act does allow the city to do this, but um in my research, this is the first year when it comes to the Municipal Elections that Elections Ontario and not impact is creating the election list for this upcoming election. Um the preliminary election list that um Elections Ontario has delivered to the clerk's office and um does contain some vital tools when it comes to accuracy of information and addresses. One of the checks is um verifying Canadian citizenship, verifying databases from the Ontario driver's license database, the Ontario photo ID card, as well as the impact registry when it comes to school support. Um, this is new, this is a new tool that the city could look into when it comes to eligibility verification and ongoing eligibility verification when it comes to Ontario Works recipients. Um, if this if the clerk can go to the second slide. Thank you. All right. Another change that recently happened when it comes to Ontario Works, which was not shared from staff to um committee or to council, was that um the Ministry of Community and Children's and Social Services recently introduced a new policy effective August 13th when it comes to clarifying of who qualifies for Ontario Works. Um, one of the clarity and this became attention in the media in August is that people without authorization to remain in Canada are not eligible um for Ontario work subject to limited existing exceptions. Um those include there was a recent case where someone that had temporary status and that was a visitor was technically not eligible for Ontario Works but yet they were still um the um social benefits tribunal ruled in that favor that they continued because the regulation was not cleared. Um so effective August 13th, 2026, this regulation was cleared. And so that um one thing that I am concerned about is that given the city previously had a sanctuary city policy in 2014, there could have been recipients that technically were either visitors to the country um or not eligible for Ontario Works due to their um authorization to remain in Canada could have received benefits and that would have resulted in an overpayment. Um, so I'm asking the city auditor general to see if they can look into this as part of the scope of the current Ontario works value for money audit. Next slide. So in addition to that there's um in the delegation package and as I obtained the policy from another municipality um there is processes is in place for the city to implement this new rule as well as exceptions when it comes to asylum claimments as well as humanitarian compassionate um applications that are being currently pending. So, uh, the packages in there and hopefully staff have implemented and that the auditor general does check that we are only paying Ontario works to, um, um, those that do have status and those that are, um, currently, um, in the country legally. Um, next slide. Um, the last thing I wanted to bring up to council as well as >> if you can just if you can just wrap up, your five minutes are concluded, so if you can just close us off, please. Yep, for sure. So, the last thing I wanted to close off with you is in my package, um, one of the recommendations from the overpayment report was that staff would notify the Ministry of Community and Social Services to the acceleration collection of inactive overpayments. That report, that decision was done July 9th. It was ratified by council July 15th. However, staff did not send the letter to the ministry until September 8th. My issue is that this is $58.3 million on the table. Why did it take two months to send a letter to the ministry ask asking to them to start accelerating the collection of overp payments um when the city >> are we good at fees? >> Um I just want to finish with one last point. We have $ 58.3 million collected that I reported since April 2026. it if I if if if it if why did it take two months to send a letter to the province when this this city continues to advocate the province to start funding other programs. Let's make an effort to start collecting this money first before we can allocate it to areas that need it the most. Thank you. >> Thank you. I'm just going to ask the clerk to take the presentation down so I can see if there's any questions from members online. I don't have anyone on the speakers list. Um so we'll move on to 6.2 and then we will receive both delegations at the end. So 6.2 is uh Hafi again respecting provincial offenses administration POA collecting the overdue amount using Ontario photo ID cards data. >> Y please go ahead. >> Yep. Um so just wanted to bring this up into the attention in regards to the $68 million that was currently reported in this um count report prior was that um the city doesn't currently have access to the Ontario photo ID card database similar to the MTO driver's license database. And I found this quite shocking because I discovered this as part of the Ontario Works eligibility um where um if there's a bylaw or a PA offense ticket that's issued to someone that doesn't drive um we don't have access to a database where we can locate them when it comes to moving to a new address. Um the city subscribes to a program called the MTO RS program. And so one of the things that could that the city could do when it comes to collections is to advocate from the province and the MTO and the Ministry of Attorney General to open the database so that both the Ontario photo ID card as well as the Ontario driver's license which are both administered by the Ministry of Transportation are available for access to the city so that they can locate individuals when it comes to overpayments and collections. um this will benefit the city when it comes to um trying to collect the $68 million um that was reported as of December 2026. Um in addition, it's a new tool um when it comes to collections because provincial offenses fines um as well as the administrative penalty system fines are the few revenue tools that the municipality has when it comes to collections um that are not related to the property tax. Um as as I know um the more collections when it comes to POA fines helps reduce the overall tax role. Um in my deputation as well I did put a package in there that I am also concerned on the security of the Ontario photo ID card um because there is a current loophole available for individuals that are visitors to the country or those that don't have legal status to obtain an Ontario photo ID card. And we used and the pro and the province currently updated the regulation bill 60 to allow um that they have to present legal documents at service Ontario to obtain this card. But we do rely on the photo ID card a lot when it comes to proof of residency or proof of accessing city services as well as in the election as well when it comes to proof of ID for voting. Um so I just wanted to conclude that um if the um if a recommendation or this can be looked into from the POA department or to the finance team um that the city can have access to the Ontario photocard database. So that will be another tool available in its toolkit when it comes to collections. Thank you. >> Thank you Hi. Uh any questions for the delegation? Okay, seeing none, uh, mover and second to receive the delegations. Councelor Wang, Councelor Cooper. Uh, show of hands, please. And that carries. Thank you. Uh, welcome to Councelor Tatison and Councelor Cooper as well. We're moving into items for information. Uh, move her and second to receive the items for information. Councelor Wang, Councelor Alex Wilson. Um, couple things here. We're going to go through them all as a group and then receive them at the end. Um there's a lot of reports here that you're seeing we're playing catch up with. I wanted to give the director of procurement an opportunity to explain why these are here. Director >> through the chair Tina, director of procurement. Um item 7.1 today is a report on the fourth quarter 2023 to the second quarter of 2025 for emergency and non-competitive procurements. Um procurement is required to bring forward three quarterly reports to committee for information um that being this report uh as well as information with respect to requests for tenders and proposals as well as non-compliancies with procurement policy. Um this report in uh in front of you today is a catchup from uh the cyber incident that occurred in 2024. Staff continue to compile this information. This particular report is there's a lot of information in here and it took some time to compile. Um previously in the committee cycle uh staff brought forward a similar report with respect to the request for tenders and proposals and non-compliancies. Um but this one remain outstanding. So today we're bringing you this information to you. Um as well you'll see items 7.2 2 and 7.3 um carry forward on on this time period from uh third quarter of 2025 and fourth quarter 2025 for tenders and proposals and non-compliance. So we're doing a catch up with respect to um the cyber incident. Thank you. >> Thank you, director. And just to note committee members, if uh there is a confidential appendix to 7.1, so if we would like to go into um close session to review that, we can defer that item. So 7.15C FCS26010. Uh Councelor Clark, please go ahead. I can't turn on your mic from here, sir. Yeah, just had just had to find it. >> Can you hear me now though? >> Yes. >> Um, just a general question to procurement. How do we train staff on our procurement, not the staff that are in the procurement office, but staff in general across the city who who can spend money? How do we train them on our procurement policies so that we don't have some of the issues that are popping up today in several different reports? >> We're going to go to the director of procurement >> through the chair. There's a number of mechanisms that procurement staff use to do outreach with our departments. Um, first off is that we have an educational component in the LMS for all city staff that goes through the procurement policy uh and in particular walks individuals through how to procure and follow the policy. We also uh conduct what we call procurement 101s. So procurement staff go out to the client departments and particularly when they have new staffs sometimes we have meetings with uh DTS or managers to go through the procurement policy and answer any questions. Um in addition to that when we see that unfortunately if there are any policy 19 or any issues that need to be addressed uh we would reach out to the client department particularly and possibly have a meeting again with staff to go over if there's any questions and then uh yeah there was one more fourth one but I forget now so um my apologies um but at any time staff are always available to reach out to the client departments and go through the policy and answer any questions. >> Councelor Clark, >> so the process is actually both proactive and reactive. So you provide training in advance and then when things pop up, you reinforce that training. Is that a fair way of putting it, director? >> Through the chair. Yes, that's correct. >> Okay, chair. Thank you very much, director. >> Thank you. Any other questions on 7.1? Okay, seeing none, we'll go to 7.2 FCS26012, request for tenders and request for proposals, July 25th to December 25th. Any questions? 7.3 FCS26013, the non-compliance with the procurement policy July 1st, 2025 to December 31st, 2025. 7 Oh, sorry. I'm a little bit too fast there. Councelor Moren Wilson, this 7.3. >> Thank you, Chair. My apologies. Um, mine is actually uh a general question in relation to all the uh item uh 71, two, and three. If I may ask it um with your permission. Okay, go ahead. Um, so I I'm wondering I when I when I read the reports, thank you for their preparation and um I I think it would be I'm assuming that the definitions uh of what qualifies for what have have not changed and if they would change uh that policy change would have to come before council. Has there been a notable change in in the policies uh this term through the chair? >> Yes, director. >> Through the chair. Um the only change that has been notable is in the policy 10 and 11 procedure and that was um mainly to deal there was a change with respect to cyber and trying to um do more expeditious procurements if you will. Um there was also some changes that respected the US tariff and implications we put in play on procurement um preferring Canadian and non US suppliers. Um but further to that there were no other changes and any of those changes would have come to the procurement advisory committee and or the committee and council. >> Okay. Thank you. And I noticed in a few of the reports there there is um a monetary uh amount um tethered to each of each of the uh types of uh exceptional procurements. I I'm wondering would it be possible on a go forward basis to do two things in the report mechanisms? One is to put those um monetary amounts and the categories perhaps in in a table. um so it could be maybe more easily um uh adjusted. And then secondly, is it at all possible uh for us to um annualize uh these o over time? So perhaps um whomever is the elected council would be able to see if there are any um uh patterns uh that should that may be noteworthy and and then maybe have questions of well why we we've noticed an acute increase in this uh why might that be the case? Is there an an ability to do something like that through the chair >> director? through the chair. Um with respect to the first request, um if I could so ask if we could take that away and I'd love to see what we can present. Um the second one, um we are starting to calculate more KPIs and I think with respect to um the there are there is some KPIs in which one is this non-compliance in the non-compliance report. Um there is a chart with respect to Appendix C, report FCS26013 with some um historical information. Um we'll take a look at the reports and see if there's other information that we could possibly present in these reports if they're not there already to give um committee and council an idea of the patterns and if there's any issues, additional issues. >> Councelor, >> thank you. um through the chair if those patterns could possibly um be illustrated in either um in a graphic form. Um and that would be helpful. If if we're seeing a repeat of activity perhaps in one division, one exercise that might assist um council and the public in understanding the stresses and strains. it could be maybe um easier for us to see where there may be uh staffing shortages or challenges or any kind of thing like that. I I would appreciate uh more of a longitudinal uh view of of of this activity per each exercise. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you, counselor. Um 7.4 4 FCS 26068 W specific funding initiatives update December 31st 2025. Any questions? 7.5 FCS26070 2025 development charges agreements executed under the development charges act 1997. Any questions? Councelor Wang, please go ahead. Thank you. That I just when I'm reading this, I just feel like it's a necessary component of us receiving that development charges reduction program. Is that just correct? I just wanted a yes or no or is that on the next one? >> Um yes. So through the chair Brian McMullen, acting director of financial planning administration and policy. Yeah, this report um is related to um an annual report that we're going to that we started doing that we uh that was required by committee um to just give an update on the agreements that have been executed under the DC act. Um there is a subsequent report coming up about changes to the DC bylaw. >> I might have been a little fast on that one. Thank you. >> Thank you. Any other questions? >> Seeing none, I need a show of hands, please, to receive the information. And that carries. Thank you. Moving on to items for consideration. 8.1 FCS26074 development charges bylaw amendment to enable a development charges reductions program agreement. Moving mover to approve >> mover and seconder to approve the recommendations in the report. Please councelor Wang. Councelor Clark. Councelor Clark. Uh go ahead please. So, I have a couple of questions uh of staff and the report is prompting them. So, I'm hoping that you'll give me the latitude. So, I understand the program that the feds in the province have ruled out. I understand that a little over $500 million and that development charges are to be waved um for three years. I'm trying to understand how we reconcile that. For example, if we have 3,000 houses built or units built in a year and you calculate the math out and you did that for 3 years, we may exceed the $556 million worth of funding. So, how do we protect the taxpayers at the long end of this project to ensure that property taxpayers are not picking up that money, those debts from the development charge agreement if it is a overwhelming success? >> Does that make sense, chair? >> Uh, I it doesn't make sense to me. I wasn't listening to you. I apologize, but the city manager was listening to you. So, uh, city manager, uh, acting city manager Zaric and GMO all that other stuff. Go ahead. >> You slay me. >> Interm city manager and general manager of finance corporate services. Uh with respect to uh the development charge exemptions, uh staff approached the uh ability to offset the grant to support the 100% development charge exemptions exclusive of the municipal contribution. uh with looking at the development forecast for the next 3 years and finance working in collaboration with planning staff have developed the those forecasts and they've normalized it to single detached equivalent units. Um based on those forecasts, uh staff have assessed that the funding that would be required to support the exemption would be about $562 million. The city has the commitment to the city is uh 5 about $572 million. The city's been invited to submit one additional project. So that additional $10 million would provide uh some buffer with respect to the staff's uh assumptions. In addition, committee will know that uh the city funds statutory and discretionary exemptions uh and subject to uh details through the transfer payment agreement and and I apologize. I'll just uh identify the transfer payment agreements are still forthcoming. We're expecting to receive those uh in uh October uh into November, but subject to the language transfer payment agreements is the continuation of that practice of funding discretionary statutory exemptions would probably provide some additional buffer. Um, and then I will invite through the chair. I'll invite uh Supervisor Gillies if I've missed any points that uh it seems like I haven't. So, if the council has any follow-up questions, happy to to address. >> Councelor Clark, >> the transfer agreement, will that document be public? >> City manager >> through the chair. Uh, I would expect it would be a public document. Uh and uh again, we're still awaiting and and not just city of Hamilton. Um all municipalities in the province of Ontario are still awaiting the transfer payment agreements. I believe while the province and federal government and city of Toronto uh entered into the commitment back in May, my understanding is city of Toronto is still awaiting the transfer payment agreement as well. Um, thank you. In the calculations that your staff have done, how many units are you reporting would be constructed in any single year for the three years? So, what's the average that you're looking at? How many units >> through the chair? I'm going to uh if if I can just have a minute to pull up some information here. If the if the council has a additional question, happy to try to answer that while we just pull up that information. >> Yeah, I I'm just I'm truly I I understand the calculations. I am concerned because I'm seeing other municipalities are putting some limitations in place to protect those municipalities. And what we seem to be doing without seeing the calculations is well based on the average home will be this. This is how many units will go out the door and we'll be well within the the 562 million. But what happens if we have a we end up having 3,000 or 3,500 units constructed in a year? That would throw that math off completely. And the municipality would be caught in that third year having to pay out of pocket for a grant that the feds and the province promised. through the chair. I appreciate uh the the opportunity to uh to provide the information requested for the and and these are cover uh periods March to March. So for March of 2026 to March of 2027, uh staff are projecting approximately uh 1365 single detached equivalent units. And so this is converting the form of development whether it's a single detached unit, a single detached dwelling, a home uh versus a semi versus a condo apartment, they're all normalized into single detached equivalent units. So again for 2026 27 uh 1365 for 2027 to 28 1843 and for 2029 to 20 2028 to 2029 uh 2488. So you see that upward trajectory in terms of the forecast with respect to if uh the development activity were to exceed these forecasts. Uh as as identified previously, there is about a $10 million buffer in terms of the commitment relative to the forecast cost based on these projections and as well uh a buffer as it relates to our budgeting practice for funding statutory and discretionary development charge exemptions. But again, if the forecasts are uh would would be conservative relative to our actual experience, we would report back to council with respect to what those mitigation measures may be. >> Councelor, >> we would final question. I have other people on the speaker's list. Thank you. >> Thank you. I I I guess I'm wanting a little bit more than if it happens, we'll we'll develop mitigations. I'm wanting to ensure that the municipality, the property taxpayers are protected against um unforeseen expenses with regards to this program simply based on the market exploding and all of a sudden developers realize that they get 100 grand off a home and we hit what our normal targets are about 2500 units a year. that's going to max out that dollar value very quickly and leave us hanging. And so I'd like to see the transfer agreement to see what's in it to protect the municipality from that happening. Thank you. >> Thank you, councelor. Councelor Wang, >> thank you. Um, I'm thankful for councelor Clark asking some of the questions, but I think I wanted to understand how are we putting any of the guard rails or how are we doing the checks with um checks and balances with the developers that will be taking advantage of this program because part of the value proposition was to say that that would be 100k off off of the price. Um, so how does that get transferred to a potential new home owner? Do we do that kind of a check and balance? Is that something we can track that that way we can definitively say that this program has um actually done what it was intended to do which was bring down the price of building potentially bring down the price of purchase that sort of thing. City Manager, >> through the chair, uh staff have uh through previous reporting have expressed the expectation that these benefits will flow to uh home producers and as well to um to renters of properties. uh we've had conversations with uh industry stakeholders with respect to a disclosure, some form of disclosure similar to what the federal government requires as it relates to the HST rebate. We've also had a conversation with our provincial uh colleagues in looking at one disclosure across the province. Our hope is that that each municipality doesn't not have to develop its own disclosure form and working with the industry that the province may consider a common disclosure form similar to what the federal government has rolled out as it relates to HSD rebate that all developers use. Uh so uh that's our interest but subject to again still awaiting the transfer payment agreement and whether or not the province will introduce uh a disclosure requirement and a form in the transfer payment agreement or whether or not municipalities will be left to our own accord and potentially work with one another for a common disclosure uh agreement. recognizing that it should not change from one jurisdiction to another. >> Council sir, >> okay, thank you for that. >> I'll want to try and unpack that later on. So, I'll look at that later. I have a question around um future DC indexing. So, in the report, it says that um council can direct staff to provide an analysis on temporary exemptions to non-residential development similar to the 4%. I don't understand. Can you can somebody just break that down for me, please? >> Do the chair. Uh I'll start and then if I miss any points, I'll invite staff to expand this. uh the requirement under development charge reduction effectively freezes the development charge rates back to March of 2026 which will result in the city foregoing uh the opportunity for indexing DC's as it relates to residential developments what the report is speaking to it does not the program does not address non-residential so the municipality will still have the ability to index development charges for non-residential developments in the future. >> So, that's good to know. Um, so what happens in 2029 for the residential DC indexing? Does that mean that at some point if we're assuming that it's going to be a 4% year-over-year year over year? That's at 2029. It'll be a residential developers might get hit with a 12% inflation DC index. Is that what that means? through the chair. I'll start uh again and I'll continue to invite staff. Uh I don't believe that municipalities have the authority to go back >> and recover uh the opportunity around DCA indexing. So when this program comes to an end is I would assume then the city would uh continue to have the authorities it has under the development charge act. I think I'm I'm think I'm worried about the sticker shock at the end of 2029 and I'm not really sure how best to address that today other than us flagging it that this might be a issue in 2029 for residential developers. Um because if they're going from a three-year freeze to all of a sudden a fairly large potentially a fairly large index um that might cause a significant drop and I'm just worried about that up and down sort of um challenge and then again getting us back to the reputational harm of Hamilton being harder to work with and blah blah blah blah blah. So I I guess I'm just really worried about this whole sticker shock at the end of 2029. I'm not sure how to how best to ask staff to answer that question or is if that's a consideration at all for the future. Thank you. >> Thank you councelor. It's going to be I think a tough one for staff to sort of give any >> so answer to >> through the chair. Uh I would say uh the experience in 2029 in Hamilton will not um necessarily be different u for relative to other municipalities who have chosen to participate in the program. Uh the program is intended to incentivize developments in the next three years. So that is the intent of the program and to to get developers uh to develop and build. Uh in terms of the just recognizing the city does have development charge exemptions uh both statutory and discretionary and it was uh I believe just uh the last cycle we identified for 2025 that amounted to approximately $78 million both tax and water supported. Uh so those would we would expect will continue to be available in 2029. uh but with respect to this program the intent is for this program is to accelerate and incentivize for three years but not beyond 3 years. So this is a limited window of opportunity and uh again staff are not considering uh the potential of extending this beyond principally because the provincial federal commitments are exhausted at the end of 2029 and we also recognize the city has already a number of um statutory and discretionary exemptions in place. >> Thank you counselor. Um, I don't see anyone else on the speakers list. My only question to the city managers, I'm assuming through the agreement, we will find out how the applications will work. If they're uh building permits need to be in before that third year's up, how are we going to know? They have three years. So, if they submit a building permit a week before the deadline in 2029, I'm assuming it captures it, but their building permit might not be approved yet. I'm assuming all these small details will come through the transfer agreements that we're waiting on >> through the chair. Uh more so in terms of the municipal municipalities practice around first permit and uh for illustrative purposes, we've included a few of those examples in this report as well. We've been uh actively engaged with West End Homebuilders Association and continue to have conversations and opportunities for education sessions. Uh I believe I I have one uh or staff have one later this week and then an invitation to present a front of the industry in November. So we would share with them uh the mechanics of the program and uh just as it relates to first permit. What does first permit represent? Recognizing there's a number of scenarios. >> Thank you, Councelor Clark. Second time. >> Thank you, Chair. I I'd like to add a little bit to what councelor Wang was asking because I think she is on a point that is something that we need to consider. So, at the conclusion of this program, if nothing else changes to what we have today, three years in 2029, there will be a $100,000 bump in development charges on a single family home cuz it's turned off for 3 years and then it's going to be turned on. And as I understand it, there has been no discussions with the federal or provincial government in terms of how we would handle that. Or would there be a weaning off of the development charge program? For example, the development charges go up $25,000 in 2030 or the and then in in 2031 another 25,ou I don't know. But what I do know is we are setting ourselves up for a really difficult period moving from 2029 to 2030. If we do not know what's going to happen to the developing charge program and if it's just a matter of okay, the switch is now off, all the houses have to pay another $100,000 that's going to be a problem. So how do we raise that with the senior levels of government in terms of uh working on some kind of very clear process that we will um basically be weaning off of the DC credit program that the feds and the province have put in place. >> City manager. >> Yeah. Through the chair. Um the councelor has described the program accurately is that uh March of 2029 the program comes to an end and then the city would have the authority to proceed with collecting development charges. Uh it wouldn't be an increase. It would be just reinstating the development charges. Uh with respect to the program, the program does not uh it it does not include a phase out of the development charge exemption. uh what the municipality would have the uh authority to consider at the time is whether or not to continue to have some measures such as the 20% uh temporary um discount. However, that would not be cost shared with senior levels of government. We're we're happy as staff to take this back in terms of a a issue or concern with respect to the end of March. uh but as we understand the program there is no phase out of the program and at uh in March uh at the end of March of 2029 the city would then proceed with continuing to collect development charges as it did prior to March of 2026. >> Thank you. I think it's important that we be very clear with the public in terms of what this program does and what it will not be doing and it's going to be a big challenge for the municipalities in 2030 because they're going to be pushed to maintain this discount when we don't have the fiscal reality to do that. Thank you. >> Thank you, councelor. Uh we've exhausted our speakers list. Oh, councelor Wang, sorry. Go ahead. So, if I heard city manager correctly then that um you're asking for direction for staff to go back and take a look at what does that March 2029 and beyond look like. Is that do you require like some direction in that >> through the chair? uh I I don't know that that direction is ne necessary today through subsequent reporting is and as as the municipality approaches towards the end of the term of this contract is we could provide updates to council as it relates to what it achieved uh in terms of development activity and I would expect the industry would likely as well be presenting to council in terms of the state of the industry and whether or not uh any further consideration for exemptions or discounts would be necessary but uh I'm not sure that uh that direction is necessary today nor 3 years from from that point in time I'm not sure what staff would present not knowing uh what lies ahead in terms of uh the potential recovery of that industry in the next three years. So, is there an opportunity because we don't have the transfer payment um documents yet, is there an opportunity even just flag this um for all parties and just to say maybe there's something to almost like a offramp or something um because we don't have the transfer payment agreements today. Um is that something that we can bring up >> through the chair? uh when staff have the opportunity to review the transfer payment agreements if we see any opportunities uh as it relates to today's conversations, we can flag those with the provincial government and report back to council in terms of the outcome of of those conversations. The challenge staff have is the province has set very clear expectations that once those transfer payments are available that they get executed and that the municipalities roll out uh the program and hence our challenge and why the report is before you as as we've been provided guidance to seek the delegated authority to execute those transfer payment agreements in light of the upcoming municipal elections and the potential gap between um the timing of the transfer payment agreements relative to um inaugurations and the start of the new council cycle. >> Okay, last question for you, chair, is a question around policies and procedures because we have this three-year freeze. Um we're not we don't um do the indexing on a year-over-year basis. Um sometimes we do open up the DC bylaw again to look at exemptions and all of that stuff. So all of that kind of pauses for all three years only as it relates to residential development. Is that right? >> Through through the chair. Yes. Uh exclusive of any legislative changes. We've experienced some extraordinary legislative changes around planning and around development charges. So exclusive of any legislative changes that may occur over the next three years. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you, councelor. Councelor Moren Wilson. Thank you, chair. Um, well, I appreciate that this is an AFNA committee. I'm wondering if it is possible for me to ask um uh what is what will be or what is the role corporately of of say the housing secretariat in assessing the impact of um both uh policy changes um and these kind of exemptions on the kind of housing stock that may or may not materialize and how that aligns with with need. Like where and how is that being done as part of our um evaluation and uh uh to help the community and certainly council understand impacts. >> Who would like to take that >> to the chair? I'm happy to start and then I'll invite general manager Mater to join in. I think the opportunity is to share information with the housing secretariat. One example would be uh while affordable housing is development charge exempt, market rated housing is not development charge exempt and the sharing of information may uh assist housing secretariat to assess the feasibility of performance for developments that include a mix of affordable housing, market rated housing and whether or not the development charge exemption allowed that development to proceed because a proforma was now in a state that made financial sense for the developer to proceed. So I see that as one example of sharing of information that may help inform housing secretaria to better understand the conditions that are necessary to achieve the city's overall housing objectives and as it relates to affordable and uh market rated housing. GM Mater >> uh through the chair, general manager Grace Mater um healthy and safe communities um through the chair to the councelor um as the city manager has mentioned that uh the housing secretariat has been deeply involved in this every step of the way um even through the application process of that and the housing secretariat's work is in conjunction with our planning staff um all the way along. They're part of that um oversight group. Um, so I think that we can rest assured that uh there will be a a high level of involvement and commitment from the housing secretariat staff every step of the way. >> Councelor Wilson, >> if we are correct in stating that the housing crisis is both um a problem of supply and demand. supply being uh stock and inventory and demand being the capacity of individuals to actually afford um market housing. I I just would be interested in understanding better and I don't think today is the opportunity but I would like to flag it of uh the kind of market housing that could be uh developed in this swirling environment of of DC exemptions and DT DC uh relaxation over the next three years. is that which is being built actually um fulfilling the demand needs and the capacity of of individuals to secure that in in the in for example the market uh the private market space. So I I think that is worthy of certainly in my opinion a very close intersectional analysis at the senior level um with uh certainly the housing secretariat involved. Thank you. >> Thank you counselor. Seeing no further speakers, uh, this is an electronic vote, so Oh, look at that. The vote is up. The robots were warmed up this morning. Councelor Wilson, Moren Wilson, sorry. There we go. Just calculating and that carries 8 to zero. Thank you. 8.1A is correspondence. Mover and second to receive the correspondence on this item. Councelor Wang, I'll second it. Uh, show of hands, please. And that carries. Thank you. 8.2 2 FCS26075 records retention bylaw review and update mover and second to approve the recommendations in this report. Councelor Wang, Councelor Tison, thank you. Any questions for staff on this report? Councelor Wang, go ahead. >> Thank you for this report. I'm glad that it's here. Um, how does it work with my previous motion about data minimization? Because it was specifically asking for things like looking at length of time of how long we would have different record retention aspects because I do see that it's a very generalized report. It doesn't necessarily speak to um any of the the other parts that I was asking for in that data minimization motion from a year ago or so. >> Clerk Treadum. >> Yeah, thank you. through you chair. Um they they are different reports. Uh so we will still get back with regards to the data minimization. This is much more about the legal responsibility for overall retention and eventual disposition of formal city records. Uh whereas the data minimization piece speaks a little bit more to accessibility of information that's retained available through the website or otherwise. >> Okay. Councelor, >> how do we ensure that we're actually deleting all the things that we're supposed to delete? Because uh as people know when it's in the digital multiverse, it's there forever. So through you chair, it's an excellent question. Um this is the result of uh about a year's worth of reach out and work with the various departments. disposition is eventually a uh operational responsibility of the department's program areas and services and actually use this as an opportunity to highlight our record staff that are sitting here at the end of the row just behind me and thank them for uh some very hard work reaching out. Part of that work is highlighting that responsibility for the departments and once we have a new retention bylaw over the next year it'll be an additional set of reach out confirming their responsibility any changes to their bylaw and offering additional training and how to manage that information. >> Okay. Thank you. I uh I have a great deal of respect for Lisa and her team. I think that records is such a crucial part of any type of organization. So I think that for me I would like to understand better how the training aspect of it is because sometimes we get into bad habits. Things get saved locally onto a computer. They might go onto a server or a jump drive or something like that. Um so I wonder what is that training aspect to actually get staff up to that sort of gold standard in terms of record good records in delete records out blah blah blah blah blah. >> It's an excellent question chair. Uh, one of the updates that we've made this year is increases to our information management page on the internet site. Uh, providing more resources for staff. Again, I say it's an operational duty. It is the responsibility of each department to follow through with this. So, for training, we really do focus on ensuring they understand that. Now, from a paper perspective, I think as a city, we've been fairly good at this. We have off-site storage. We manage it. We retain it. We have annual notifications and confirmations from the various departments to ensure disposition occurs. It's a little different with uh electronic holdings and uh we are working with uh IT as well as our team taking on the responsibility of uh addressing the need for EDRMS or electronic document uh management systems and how to make that corporatewide. That's the focus of probably the next couple of years for our team is is working with uh IT working with the departments to help them find solutions to manage that problem. >> Okay. And then part of that is how does it fit with our open data policy? >> Uh so that's a great question. So open data uh again a little bit different. Uh it's information that has been determined to be accessible, published uh available to the public. Uh so it doesn't necessarily impact it. that information would stay on the website and I I think starts to bleed into your other question around the idea of uh the data minimization and how are we you know dealing with accessibility of information of public records uh and uh what is you know how does retention sort of apply to that it there's a bit of a difference between the two um but they're somewhat connected >> okay thank you those are my questions >> thank you councelor councelor clerk >> thank you chair And and thank you to the record staff. They they do an awesome job, chair. Anytime you can't find a record yourself, you can reach out to them and and it's amazing how they can find records in the past. So my compliments to the team. Just want to put an ore in the water if I may with the city clerk. I understand this is about records retention and creating a system so that basically we are we're archiving everything. Um but the archive is only helpful if the public has access to the archive. And so I'd like to at some point address the issue of ease of access to records that are being stored um for the public use. And I'm not sure exactly when we would have that discussion or whether or not we need to make that a direction to the clerk and staff to have that discussion. Sorry, chair for the incillary. >> Clerum. >> Yeah, through you chair. Uh it's an excellent question. uh and again I would say a focus of of the next couple of years for our team and and the organization as a whole. It's a balancing act of a number of different requirements both how do we make information available transparent and accessible. Um accessibility is a big piece with the requirements under the accessibility for Ontarians with disabilities act. You can't just put a PDF up on a website. uh you have to ensure that the documents are accessible and we we have a a number of different requirements that we have to look at to ensure that when we do make information available it it is available in the best way possible. So we are this is a priority. I don't think we require direction uh from council to continue pursuing that. Again I get back to these holdings technically are in the possession of the department. So it's working with program areas to provide them with assistance solution file plans um and then working with it to to come up with solutions that that work best for everybody. >> Uh just a a supplementary. So, if I recall correctly, um the FOI department was already working with our different departments across the city to educate them and train them on what records are routine should be routinely accessible. Is that work still going on? >> So, through your chair, that's an ongoing process. So as we receive FOI requests, uh there's always an education component that sometimes comes with that. Uh whether it is we're receiving requests for this type of record more often. Is there a way that we can identify this as routine disclosure or active dissemination where we're trying to just have it, you know, put out there. There are some reasons why that can't happen. Perhaps there's personal information or exemptions that might apply that would require it to go through an FOI process, but wherever possible, we do look to identify those records in cooperation with staff. >> Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, city clerk. Much appreciated. >> Thank you, councelor. Uh, no further speakers. We'll go to the electronic vote. Vote is up. Thumbs up from councelor Moren Wilson. That carries 8 to zero. Thank you. 8.3 FCS26077 appointment of deputy clerks for the purpose of commissioning of documents. Mover and second to approve the recommendations in the report. Councelor Wang, is anyone else going to put up their hand today? Councelor Alex Wilson. Any questions on the report? Seeing none, we'll go to the vote. That carries 8 to zero. 8.4. Another opportunity for other people to move in second. LS26017 transfer of the adjudication process of the administrative penalty system program. Looking for a possible new mover and seconder. Council Moren Wilson. Oh, yay. Councelor Tison. Thank you. Oh, look at that. Any questions on the recommendations in the report? Seeing none, we'll go to the vote. Vote is up. That carries 8 to zero. Thank you to the mover and seconder. 8.6 AUD26008 South Coat Road Capital Project Audit Contract C15-19-22 HSW fraud and waste number 80828 W 12 and citywide. First off, I'd like to ask for a motion to extend the presentation time um for an additional 10 minutes. I need a mover and a seconder, please. Councelor Morin Wilson, Councelor Clark. Thank you. And this is an electronic vote. Vote is up. That motion's carried 8 to zero. Thank you. Charles Brown, our auditor general, and David Fenon, hopefully I didn't uh butcher your name too bad, um are here to provide committee with a presentation on this item. General, whenever you're ready, you can begin. >> Thank you. So thank you very much chair and through you I'm here to present our report on the South Coat Road Capital project uh which was aly assisted by David Fenon of Fenon Advisory and Matthew Alter and Emily Debrto of Castle's law firm and also overseen by Deputy Bridget Manard and Rajny Deshband And the uh the project which uh commenced in 2022 and was completed in 2024 was for road work, water main installation and storm water infrastructure over a corridor. under approximately 1 1.5 kilometers long. It had three bids, the lowest coming in at 13.3 million and there were significant uh change orders that added about 2.5 million or 19% to the final cost. Our audit reviewed multiple aspects of project management such as planning approvals, design, procurement, construction management, change orders, payables, contingency, and budget management. I think it's important to acknowledge that the audit was initiated at the request of senior management in public works to help inform on process improvement they were and are continuing to undertake. Uh you'll see in the audit reports uh itself there are references to areas where we were aware they had started to proactively work on or subsequently address issues. Our objective was to assess whether there were adequate governance tools, controls and project management processes to support efficient and effective program delivery. observant of where there had been major cost increases in the course of our work. We asked for a legal opinion regarding a particular procurement issue that accounted for approximately 401,000 of the increase in cost. That opinion by Castle's law firm is privileged and confidential in appendix B and it discusses some of the legal ramifications of the procurement and subsequent events that I will address shortly. I will also say that um uh very recently we received information uh that's not reflected in their opinion. However, the nature of that information had no bearing on the legal issues being examined. So, I did not ask for a revision uh to the opinion. Uh though I have reflected the new information in our public report. So to recap, the project procurement resulted in a tender price of 13.3 million which rose by 19% to 15.8 million which was the final cost. Uh the increases resulted from a contract addition related to the procurement issue of 401,000 change orders of approximately 1.5 million and quantity adjustments of 605,000. Bear with me. So this chart breaks down the different kinds of change orders and it shows that um the bulk of them were sewer and water related which is as we know is underground infrastructure. Uh this can be challenging to fully plan for since the current state of repair or exact installation may not be fully known in the planning phase. So we have our findings grouped into different categories. Uh the first one being project governance. Uh we found governance and oversight processes were not mature meaning uh there were some gaps in terms of having established processes and documents related to project charter, project manual, change orders and records of stakeholder communications. Uh number two, processes around scope definition, revisions to scope and decision-making documentation. We found there was not a fully defined scope at the time of handoff from infrastructure renewal to design and the lack of a consolidated scope change log and decision register and key inputs not being available such as geotech utility locates etc led to poor explanations for what was going on, what issues were faced and the decisions that were made. Number three, communication of scope changes and their adoption into tender documents, specifically agenda. Uh here we found that changes prepared by design were not accurately carried forward into tender documents. Uh further there was there was no accuracy or quality assurance checkpoints uh or signoffs that might mitigate this. And so this led to what we are referring to as a procurement anomaly. What happened was that uh following award and during construction, the contractor raised an issue with two lines of storm sewer items, lines 28 29, uh contending that there were errors with respect to these items. Now, in their tender, they had bid $1 per linear meter for these line items. For these same line items, other biders supplied realistic pricing. For example, the other bids for these items were approximately 343,000 for one and 316,000 for the other biders. The discrepancy in pricing alone gave sufficient advantage to win the award. After the award, they requested revised pricing for these items, which was granted at $41,000. So, allow me to illustrate what what I mean here on this uh chart. So you see you have two lines there we've extracted and this talks about 117 linear meters of pipe and the other one is 93 linear meters of pipe which adds up to uh 200. So essentially uh the winning bidder bid $200 for these two line items. The other biders bid 342 3 uh.9 316 and the $200 the the bidder on $200 was the winning bidder and that actually secured them enough of an advantage to actually win the bid. Sorry. Here. So, in uh in reviewing this, we set out uh to determine obviously what happened. Were there um were there errors in the description of requirements for 28 and 29? And second, we wanted to know whether the errors, if any, had been corrected uh fully by addenda. Public works was able to confirm and show us evidence of having forwarded the correct amendments. uh but we could not obtain evidence as to whether all the corrections had been uh properly entered. Uh then uh late last week I sat down with procurement and uh and on into this week we did receive information that uh persuaded us that the agenda corrections requested by public works had not been accurately placed in the revised schedule of prices that biders were bidding on and in some cases not at all. So specifically, it was the upsizing of pipe in lines 28 and 29 that did not reflect the required sizes in the tender documents uh that were actually bid on. So if I go back and look at the chart here. So for 20 line 28 there uh the required size was uh 825 mm and the bid on size was 750. For line 29 the required size was 900 mm and the bid on size was uh 600. So that's the discrepancy. Um irrespective of these errors, the winning bidder did bid $1 per linear meter on the 117 linear meters of pipe. In our view, uh, they should not have been compensated for the full cost of these two lines outside of the change order process. And rather, there should have been a change order for the difference between 117 linear meters of 750 pipe and 117 linear meters of 825 pipe. Similarly for line 29 which posted 600 m millimeters that should have been 900. This addition to contract for some reason was done outside the change order process. Also, I asked uh castles for a legal opinion on the fairness of the procurement process given the advantage the winning bidder secured in bidding a dollar and later making that up and also on the city's ability to have held them to account on their $1 bid per linear uh meter. Uh we concluded from all of this that from a process perspective that all elements of changes or corrections issued in agenda should be scrupulously tracked and monitored and quality checked uh by public works in writing. So number four, budget monitoring and cost reporting. We found that budget management relied on uh uh progress payment certificates without consideration of actual uh payment data or reconciliation. And also there was no standard requirement for job cost reporting. Number five, unforeseen site conditions and outdated infrastructure records. Uh this refers to our finding that unforeseen site conditions which could not be reasonably identified in earlier project phases plus the reliance on older surveys and drawings which may not be accurate were a significant factor in changes that went into uh into this project. In fact, 352,000 of the change orders were attributable uh to the circumstance. Finding uh number six uh inspection documentation. We found documentation practices uh were not standardized and reliant on manual note takingaking and with no consistent templates. Number seven, contingency planning. We found costing sorry contingency allocations were not based on formal policy or guidance uh which in our view should exist and and be based on uh complexity and risk. Number eight, change order processes. We found change order documentation and authorization practices were inconsistent and there was a wide variety of practices including the fact that some change orders were not signed by the appropriate authority. Number nine, payment schedules. We found formal requirements for detailed payment schedules was not a policy at the time of the project and was not provided uh by the contractor. And uh this reduced the ability for to effectively efficiently manage track and report to planned milestones. Number 10, lessons learned or continuous improvement. We found an absence of consistent process for documenting and communicating lessons learned on a project which can reduce the ability of staff to learn insights from the project and apply them to future projects. So our overall conclusion was that uh uh the projects the project highlight highlighted challenges with large complex projects under evolving and maturing project uh governance processes and tools. uh some gaps in scope, definition, change management, project documentation and financial management uh increased this project management complexity and likely costs. And there were opportunities to improve not only governance but also communication uh between different stakeholders and ultimately strengthen consistency, transparency and oversight. We made uh 10 recommendations aimed at helping to improve strengthen all these items. Management were in agreement and provided responses to all 10 recommendations. So how'd I do for time? >> You had uh three minutes and change to spare, General. So I I appreciate that. Um, so we're going to take questions um on the auditor's presentation and then we'll have another presentation from engineering staff following um our questions on this. So I have councelor Brad Clark up first. >> Um thank you chair. So on page 14 of the presentation, you mentioned project managers and I'd like to understand, are these project managers employees of the city of Hamilton or are they independent contractors that are hired to manage these projects? >> I believe that they are internal staff at least on this project. I could be wrong if I public works wants to correct. I see nodding heads. Yes, they're internal staff. >> Okay. Um, chair, I think what what I'd like to do is I'd like to hear from our staff before I ask my further questions. U, but this has been an issue that I've been concerned about for several years and I've raised it and and I'm glad the auditor general conducted this audit. Um, but I'll ask my questions after staff. Thank you. Thank you, councelor. And the auditor will be here in case things come up after the next presentation. We'll make sure he doesn't leave. >> Well, I have other items, but also if you did have questions about the legal opinion, we'd have to go in camera for for those questions. >> So, do we have any other questions of the auditor or we'll move on to engineering staff's presentation? >> Okay, let's move on to engineering staff. I just need uh procedurally a um does this have to be electronic to receive the presentation? No. Show of hands just to receive the presentation for now. Uh mover and secondary will be uh councelor Cretch and councelor Clark. And then we will just uh have Depanker Chararma who's the director of engineering services who's going to provide a presentation as well. And then once we're done that we will open it up for questions. Just give us one second while we get the presentation set up. Thank you. director, turn your mic on. Uh, I'm assuming you don't need an extension on your presentation. You can do this in 10 minutes >> through the chair. I would like to request a threeminut extension if possible. >> Three minutes. >> Three minutes. >> Not a lot of people want to move in second stuff around here. I'll just let you do the extra three minutes and they can call me out of order if they don't like it. Go ahead. >> Perfect. Uh thank you. Uh good morning chair and the members of the committee. I am Deepanker Sharma, the acting director for engineering services and public works. Uh I would like to begin by thanking auditor general Mr. Brown and Mr. Fenon uh and his team and Fenown Consulting for their work on this audit. I want to be clear about something is how did this review come about? Although the report carries a fraud and waste reference number, the auditor general report confirms it was initiated at the request of senior management. South Coat was a complex project and we wanted to have an independent look on how this project evolved and whether it was delivered for value for money. We asked for the review because we wanted to learn from it and we welcome the findings and we take them seriously. Over the next few minutes, I'll walk you through how engineering services is responding, what has changed since the project was standard in 2022 and what we will put in place next. So, let me start and how this presentation is organized. Um I will start with the overall response to the audit. Then I will go through the recommendations and order how a project happens. First we'll go through initiation and planning, how we conclude and organize projects into streams. Then we will go through design and procurement and then constructions and lessons learned. I will finish with how engineering services management office will carry this work through including how projects will move through a gated delivery and then take your questions. So let's start with the bottom line. Uh the bottom line is engineering services agrees with all 10 recommendations. The auditor general concluded that the south coast was delivered while our project governance was still maturing and we agree with that. Uh since the project was tendered in 2022, we have already completed three recommendations and the rest are targeted for the fourth quarter of 2027. We have grouped the recommendations by stage of a project where they apply for each one. The next slide will show what we did in 2022, what we do today and what we will do in future. We'll start at the beginning of a project with initiation and planning. This is where projects are created and this is where a project scope is set and it is where audit found the most important root cause. South co scope was not fully defined when it was handed over from planning to design. It kept on changing through design and even through construction and there was no formal documentation or process outlining how these decisions were taken. So here what what has changed? Project charters that helped conclude all the scope the timing and the budgets weren't required in 2022. They are now mandatory for every capital project and are required with every purchase order. This action is now complete. Scope definition and project streams now help us define scope early. We will add that clear requirement for early and complete scope definition to our project management procedure. A decision log was optional but we will make it mandatory for all projects. It will be set up at the initiation stage of a project and we will link it to our capital project management software that will give us one record for every significant decision change and approval and it will also help us mitigate any impacts on costs, schedules and risk. We do have a pro uh we do have a project governance framework. We will update it and make sure we have named right owners for each documents. We will also set up review cycles and clear approval limits. So we get we want to get back to defining scope early and knowing what kind of project we are planning to do and this is where project streams come into play. We now organize our capital projects into project streams for roads, structures, and subsurface. Each has a defined range of work from simple resurfacings to a coordinated rideway replacement auto reconstruction. The scope and the complexity increase from left to right. This matters for two reason. First, it helps us define scope very well in advance. And once we understand which stream a project belongs to, we know what it should include and what it should not include, what investigations and design work it needs and the timing for the project. It also means planning hands design a defined scope, not an open-ended question. Uh this goes directly to recommendation two and the scope issues on South Code. Second, it helps council residents and our partners to focus on the projects that are most complex and that need our most attention. These projects are usually on the right hand side of this screen where several types of infrastructures are being replaced such as was the case in South Code. So once our scope is set, the project moves into design and procurement as planning. The next two slides will show where we were in 2022, where we are today and where are we going. the slides with procurement issue the auditors have described. Uh I'm going to state the exact statement from the audit. The management review and update existing processes to ensure procurement documents prepared by the consultant and or by the design team are subjected to an approve appropriate review and verification against the approved scope changes prior to issuance. So here what has changed quality review happened now we will make it into a requirement before any tender is released the design project manager senior project manager and the manager will confirm that the documents have been thoroughly through a quality review and they match approved scope and public works will work with our partners in procurement ment to make sure every agenda is documented properly and every correction is saved properly during the tendering process. We have already strengthened how agendas are reviewed and coordinated with procurement. On bid evaluations with procurement we will define who evaluates and approves bids. These are already done. We want to make sure these are recorded as processes. coordination with procurement. We already give advanced upcoming notices to procurement and we meet with them every two weeks. We will formalize these protocols as well. Records South Co records from environmental assessments through constructions are held in our project repository called projectwise which has version history and an audit trail. This action is now complete. We will make sure retention requires retention requirements are applied the same way to all capital projects. Once a project is standard and awarded, it moves into construction. In construction, the audit themes were around change control, budget visibility, and contingency. In 2022, we introduced a formal change order process. It is now in place since 2025. We will keep on strengthening it and we will add and review cycle to it. For budget visibility, our project progress certificates do not draw from actual data from the city's financial system. We will work with finance to change that and formalize how project progress payments or PPCs are reviewed. Monthly reporting on construction projects it happens now but it is not a formal requirement. We will make it one with senior management review and create a clear escalation when forecasts go over budget. Talking about contingencies during this projects the contingency was set based on a professional judgment between n 10 to 15%. We will work work with procurement to develop a formal contingency framework for both design and construction. In regards to payment schedules, contractors already are now giving us construction and cash flow schedules before any of the work is starting. Because we pay only on measured quantities and verified work, we will use those construction schedules to forecast and budget monitoring only. Lessons learned. Closing reports are already mandatory. We will add a formal lessons learned process to these closing reports. For inspections, our inspection records have gone from paper copies to digital. And now that action is also complete. Those are the changes that have happened since 2022 till date. The real test comes to us in making sure that these changes stick. Making these changes stick is the job of our engineering services management office or EMO. It is already in place. This was put in place in April of 2026. The EMO sets standards, tools, governance for our project management team and makes sure all project management standards are applied the same way on every project. For a project manager, for a project manager, this means that standard templates are in one place. Better visibility on budgets. One point of contact for procurement, legal risk and HR questions. Training and mentorship opportunities are also available. A clear review point before a project moves forward. The EMO will own the updated project management framework and it will make sure audit actions are carried out. The EMO is built around four pillars. Financial, standards, training and governance. Each audit recommendation falls under one or more of them. For example, the budget monitoring and contingency sits under financial. The procurement and agendas recommendations sits under governance and the training supports all of them because a procedure only works if staff know how to use it. Those pillars come together in how every project moves through delivery. So how does the future look like? This is how projects will move through delivery. There are six stages grouped into define, develop and deliver. Each stage ends with a gate. At each gate, scope, cost, schedule, risk are confirmed and key decisions are recorded in a decision log. And this happens before a project moves to a next gate. EMO oversees this across every single stage. This directly addresses audits finding on scope definitions and decision tracking. And this brings me to my closing. To sum all this up, we agree with the 10 recommendations that audit has provided. Three of them are already complete. The rest will be delivered within 2027 with an updated framework supported by EML. Thank you. I'll I'll be happy to take any questions. >> Thank you, director, for your presentation. Um, we do have a long list, so I will just let everybody know. Um you'll get your 5 minutes and then you will be um asked to go on for a second time. Um councelor Clark, I know you wanted to speak last time, so I'll start off with you, councelor Alex Wilson, councelor Tamway, and councelor Crutch after that. And then we do have councelor Casar here as well. That will go when all committee members are complete. Welcome councelor Casar. Councelor Clark, go ahead. Um, thank you, chair. And as I said in my earlier statement, this has been a concern of mine for a few years. So, I'm trying to understand this was an audit of one project, but it points to issues on how we deal with scope and how we deal with requests for addendums. So, do we have an indication how often that occurs on public work construction project that the um bidder after he's approved tells them that oh well I missed something and I you need to pay me more money. >> Director >> uh through the chair to the counselor. Thank you for your question. um change orders occur on projects based on different complexities. So this depends upon how um just I'll take you back to a slide if I can or if it's still up. No it's not. Um so if we are doing a easy project which is a road resurfacing there will be less change orders on it b versus a project like south code uh where multitudes of complex um assets are getting replaced. So at that time you will see a difference or an increment in change orders if that helps counselor. So, how do we ensure procedural fairness in the procurement process if we are willing to approve addendums worth several hundred,000 on projects? Why aren't we holding the bidder, the vendor to the contract? Why do we turn over money to vendors? Um, knowing full well that others bid less than that and we don't hold that that vendor to the contract. So help me understand that >> counselor just to clarify like for example the $1 bids why would we give >> that's a per that's a perfect example you know that very clearly there was either an error or an intentional desire to under bid with the understanding that they can always ask for an increase in scope to secure more money and that's my fear that it's not necessarily happening across the board as an error that people recognize that the city of Hamilton is willing to do this >> director. >> So I'll try to recap the councelor's question. Um so the counselor question is around addendums and then we will try to explain the $1 error. Uh so I'll start and I'll u let procurement join in. Um so the contract process that we have uh when we start uh during the tender phase addendums are issued if a contractor of or a bidder is asking for clarifications and in regards to once these contracts are awarded we move into a different phase where change orders are issued if there are changes to scope. So if we have accepted a bid and we have moved into a different phase, change orders are based on site conditions and they're approved on this based on the timing and the complexity of site. That being said, now going back to the first part of it, how are addendums improved and how they can be improved? So to just explain on that counselor, we are working with procurement in creating a process that will help us both navigate through this. It will public works will be giving a sign off on the addendums. So um mistakes or u typos won't happen moving forward. I'll let procurement join in. Thank you. >> Jim Kennedy. >> Hi. Good morning. Uh Jackie Kennedy, general manager of public works. Um I I think it's important on this point to note that um we we do adhere to the contract and we require that the contractors honor the contract that they bid on. Um in in this case when the size of the pipe that was included in those line items where they bid a dollar, that sizing was not required. And so when they came to the project manager during the execution of this work and they said, "Well, we we need to put in a a size of pipe that you don't have in your in your um in our bid that's not in the contract. We had to go and find a price that was um that did line up with what was needed on site." And so a contract change was required. Um I I I hope that provides a little clarity on the boots on the ground how we would manage through that. Um at times there are things in the contract that require change um post bid and we have to negotiate with contractors, manage them through that and um and make times and make decisions in real time in the field to keep the project progressing through. Um and and so that is part of the challenge that we have with this kind of complex construction work at times. >> Counselor, I'll ask you to follow up briefly on what you've heard and then I'll put you on for a second time. >> Um it doesn't resolve my concerns with the greatest of respect to GM Kennedy. My concern is that people are bidding on projects for public works. They know full well that afterwards they can say, "Oh, there is a change in scope." and so they ask for more money. My question is, how do we prevent that from happening? How do we hold vendors directly responsible for the contract that they submitted that they signed and now all of a sudden they're asking for more money from the municipality. And I would suggest that that would be one of the reasons that we seem to have so many projects that go over budget is because of this issue. And so I'm concerned about it. I've been concerned about it for years. I keep raising the same question. How do we stop this from happening? How do we put controls in place? How do we hold vendors responsible for their tender that they submit? It's on them to get the tender right. Instead, the taxpayers end up paying more money to them. So, I continue to have concerns. Um, greatest respect to GM Kennedy. Um, but I'm still not satisfied in terms of how we're handling this. Thank you. >> Thank you, Councelor Clark. Uh, councelor Alex Wilson. >> Sorry. >> Thank you through the chair. Just want to start by saying I really appreciate the notes about the self-referral. I'll also just echo councelor Clark and say I think you know anytime we get involved in projects as counselors you know we we've shared maybe these concerns or our experiences on a project specific file. What I will say though is I do think when I reflect back to projects in year one year two of this term to now and the management responses here I'll just comment myself do I think we're maybe as far as we would like to be to councelor Clark's last opponent. No, I think this is a continuous improvement exercise. I do just want to acknowledge I think I'm hearing a different response than I was personally hearing kind of one-on-one meetings um about specific files. I think there is um a systemic piece here. So I just want to acknowledge that thank the folks who have been doing some internal change management but also recognize that this got here because there was a referral saying we know we're not there yet. So just appreciating all that context at the top. Um one thing that confuses me and I'm not sure chair who's best positioned because it's about all of the appendices. So it's not specific to any um one perspective. It's why is vendor management uh vendor performance management not included in this report? I would think that when we're talking about quality management and we're talking about how do we track these types of things, we also are simultaneously doing an evaluation of vendors. And so I just I would have thought there was a very clear link to we're standardizing these um types of inputs and those will match how we're going to evaluate people. And so just maybe if there could be a comment on the role of of vendor performance management uh changes and how it maybe intersects with some of this work because I I was anticipating to hear a lot more overlap and it's it's just not mentioned. >> Yeah. And I appreciate that because I think it overlaps with a bunch of different departments. So uh director do you want to start and then I don't know if procurement's going to have or GM Kenny's going to have something to add to this. Um vendor performance reviews in the process I think is what we're looking at. We don't see any vendor performance sort of discussion on self. >> Yeah. So we can't thank you for the question and uh through the chair. Uh vendor performance management is integrated in the work that we do um on projects like this. Um I think that it's not included in the responses today because it was not brought forward as part of the audit. Um but we can um Tina, I'm not sure if you'd like to add to what we do do with vendor performance today >> through through the trim. Maybe you'll just clarify. I'm just hoping that if we're standardizing say our our rubric, let's say, that then we we match the standardization on our uh homework. So, for example, I'm seeing lots of things here that say we're going to take more standardized approaches to certain types of I would just hope that within then on the back end when we're evaluating, we make the same standardization on both sets. So, we're not holding um vendors to one set of standards in terms of maybe how they conduct the thing, conduct the project, but another set of standards for the types of papers that they're doing. like we could evaluate them on if they're not following the tender process correctly that may impact how they are evaluated. I'm seeing nods across so I'm going to move on to my next point. >> Go ahead. >> Um yeah, on the lessons learned section uh can staff comment on the role for public input um on that. So if a project is going out um especially higher uh disruptive projects um counselors communicate about the timeline of those projects. um if you want to reach out to the project manager because you're impacted say by construction impacts or some of that. Is there value in having an open-ended uh form to uh hear about community impacts? They could obviously not necessarily be weighted uh quantitatively, maybe it's a qualitative waiting again in that performance management or lessons learned, but just flagging that there could be a difference between uh technical compliance, so all the uh papers were filed at the right time in the right way and were checked off by the right people. Um but maybe we didn't have um because it was a unique project or there was impacts um Spencer Creek uh salmon spawning uh school route all those types of things overlapped and a lesson learned is wow the school season and the rainy fall season make doing inwater work um really difficult and we have to think about that from a project timeline perspective so that's nothing went wrong everyone followed their job contractually but there's some feedback that I don't know that gets captured in the lessons learned if we don't more broadly receive that feedback just wondering if there could be a comment on how do we capture um more than just staff's feedback and the lessons learned >> director >> through the chair to the counselor. Thank you for your question. U so as we talked about projects and their complexity, one thing that we have implemented in engineering services is about doing public information centers and uh there's multitude of them. Uh one of the inputs that we receive in public information centers is regarding how detours can function, how the design will h um how the design layouts will function. In addition, we have also introduced uh something called story maps where you can monitor the progress of the project in real time. This also helps us with engaging public and also provides them a point of contact if they are trying to reach to the right person on site through you. Just maybe a quick response to that. I think that's great because I think that sets people's expectations at the beginning of the project. My real push here is for a kind of a a form whether it's on engage Hamilton or somewhere else that is permanently open from that PIC that's the launch date. I think that makes sense to when the project is closed. So there's a place to refer people to provide their feedback because I think when that project is happening, especially if there's a delay, procurement and project management are dealing with the delay. They're dealing with the contract and then public communication is maybe a secondary or tertiary priority comes through the counselor's office, then it gets into the newsletter on social media. Like there's some delays that get baked into that. And so having an open door for the public to provide feedback consistently throughout the process I think helps if procurement is maybe in a backlog and can't speak to a resident on the phone about the contract or engineering services doesn't have that facetime availability. Um there's still an intake at least even if we can't respond. So just flagging I don't think there's an intake portion via the PIC and that's that's the push here. But I I do appreciate we we do some things. >> Um if I can get one last comment in. >> Go ahead. Um I would be curious in understanding more as projects go through design um and we're evaluating uh through uh better evaluation and kind of lessons learned as a result of some of these standardizations uh if there's types of projects that we should be doing uh contracted out design versus internal design. My experience has been when sometimes we do contract out design there can be additional delays built in. And so I just appreciate that as a result even though it's not in the focus of this evaluation by having more KPIs by doing more evaluation by being more structured in the types of information we have we can ask ourselves different types of questions like are there certain types of projects or certain ways of doing work that end up having a couple kind of delays in them versus other ways of doing or designing that work. So thank you. >> Thank you councelor Wilson. Councelor Tammy Wang >> thank you for doing this work. I know that last yesterday we were also talking something not the same but kind of same. Um so I appreciate what hap the lessons learned slides where it was like prior practice current state and the future state. How are we baking in any of these like sort of feedback mechanisms or key performance indicators? On first blush it looks like we have built in a significant more red tape and bureaucracy and that's warranted. I'm worried about how this might affect project delivery. Uh is that going to draw out the time frame? Is the EMO office now going to be um how are they tasked with setting certain like budget limits or anything? Like I'm just when I look at this, it just feels like we've just gone from a lot from no red tape to a lot of red tape. And then how will that impact like say timelines for example >> through the chair to the council? That is a great question. Thank you so much for asking. Um so when we were talking about project streams and I was I was pointing towards trying to keep projects easy. Uh when we talk about projects that are easier to deliver quicker, we want to get them done quicker. We are not going to look at them from the same lens. But when it comes to projects that are coordinated and more complex, when it comes to projects like South Code, Garner, these projects need to be looked at from a different lens, from the lens of risk, from the lens of schedule changes, from the lens of cost. When we are doing simpler, smaller, I wouldn't call it smaller, but simpler projects uh such as resurfacings. And I keep on going back to resurfacing. U they are they don't go through the same rigor. They should not go through the same rigger and that's the plan. Uh so the way our EMO is set up, it will look at the overall process. Some projects are becoming programs that can be delivered at a faster pace than u more complex projects where we want to take our time. >> Okay. Um so as part of this continuous improvement then uh is there an expectation that we want to try and get 80% of the projects to hit 100 like their project deadlines or their project like I'm thinking about it from a um a customer service perspective on a resident's perspective too. They're always going to look at us and their assumption I I know for me at the doors is that they assume all projects are going to go over over in budget over in time frame. So how do we help with giving them that assurance given these new processes that we are going to work towards getting all projects that have been bid, tendered and spoken about publicly that they will be on budget or at project time frame. So it's a uh through the chair to the counselor it's a multitude explanation and apologize for it. Um so projects developing a project starts at the time it was scoped. Um so currently our complex projects they go through a functional design for example Bon Street. Um once the functional design design is complete we will have a better estimate on what the budget is and we will have a better estimate on when that delivery cycle will happen. It cannot be a guarantee on you will be delivering it in let's say for example in 2028 things move legislations change we want to make sure we are concurrent to all of them but where we can make a difference is by making sure we are communicating it to the public at the right time and I think if we do that job right there are less concerns from public that their projects are still ongoing we're still taking care of uh these assets projects. >> Okay. Um what is our sort of mechanism on checking to see how well our new processes are doing? >> Like what's that time frame? Because you're when you say future state, future state could be tomorrow or future state could be 10 years from now. So what's what's our what's our feedback here? >> U through the chair to the council counselor. If I could do it tomorrow, I will. Uh but things do take time. we have processes in place. Uh the intent is we want to make sure even though if we are putting in these tapes, these blocks, these gates, we want to make sure that they are well communicated, people, our staff is getting trained on them. Uh because if the staff is not trained on them, they will not be using it. We want to make sure they're sold and uh we can report back on these gates. >> Okay. So, chair, I think my question then is um it's not really stated in the report about when we might actually do that check-in. So, is that a five five years from now kind of thing or is that maybe two years from now? Uh what's that what's that feedback that we might get from to understand how well we're doing? >> Um through the chair to the counselor. Um some of the act actions that the c uh that the auditor recommended have been completed. >> We are trying to expedite as fast as we can through this. The uh our recommendations back to the to the auditor report is that we will be back to council by Q4 of 2027. >> I missed that. Thank you so much. Thank you chair. >> Thank you councelor. Uh one last look committee members. Anyone uh for first time? If not, I'm going to go to councelor Casar for his questions and comments. Councelor Casar, please go ahead. >> Yeah. Thanks, Chadori. Can you confirm you can hear me? Okay, >> we can. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you and thank you to uh the AG and for staff for these presentations. Um, I guess I'll start off by saying it's actually really disappointing to hear the terms evolving and immature project governance applied to our processes, you know, as recently as the beginning of this term. Um, so acknowledging that uh some of the leadership was different at that time and there already is work underway and that there was staff who requested this report. But still, you know, to have those terms applied to such a recent timeline is is really concerning and I'm appreciative of the questions that have been asked. I think they are very important. So I want to there may be a little overlap here but I think it's really important that there is accountability back to this body and I heard from the director that at Q4 2027 on the progress because we we can't have a process that deals with hundreds of millions of dollars every year in projects to not be best-in-class. And so it's one thing to say we're going to actually um complete all these recommendations, but that should not be our goal. Our goal for a m municipality of our size should be best-in-class project governance. So I think there's further work to be done. uh and that standard would need to be defined. But I'm not satisfied just to go go through this uh and make sure the AG recommendations are done because there could be other things and other projects that need attention too. So I think that'll need followup, but that would be my goal to continue focus as governors unacceptable if we don't have best-in-class governance processes uh for projects. And secondly, and just as is as important and if not more important, there needs to be, and I don't think we do this very well generally as a city, follow up with the public to demonstrate the steps we've taken and to show that we are on our way or at best-in-class because this is exactly the type of thing that erodess trust and confidence. And we we cannot have that when you know we have property taxes that people are paying. There's lots of cost pressure. We're trying to do the best we can. And I know staff are doing that. And I'm sure there would not be any disagreement with the sentiment that we want to ensure that we are delivering the best value for money. And when you have projects that are this large, this is a huge opportunity to demonstrate that. So, I I'd be certainly open for comments from staff on this, but I also think it's followup and more work that needs to be done through a motion potentially in the notsodistant future, but we cannot settle for anything less than best-in-class. This is a huge opportunity now. We've publicly shared here's the challenges we have and if we are not pushing ourselves to be the best, I think we've let everyone down, including ourselves. So no specific question but I would love to hear a staff response on those comments. Thank you chair >> uh through the chair to the counselor. Thank you for your comments counselor. Uh we do agree with most of them. Uh we do need to modernize engineering services and we are currently working on that process as I speak. Um there is staff such as and initiative such as implementation of engineering services management office that was done this year. uh that is being led by our uh senior project manager Janelle Trent that is already in place. The intent of that is to have governance over projects. We do want to modernize engineering services and we are hoping that that process will be at a substantial rate until Q7 of 2027. >> Q4 Q4 of 2027. >> Yeah. So acknowledge that. I know as professional staff you're doing everything you can. I think this is at the GM and the city manager level to make sure that we are communicating this in a much better way than we normally share things because this is the core of how we can build trust and confidence because these are such large and visible projects incorporating lots of the things uh the committee members had shared. So, you know, I'll definitely, you know, ensure there's future conversations on this, but thank you for the efforts and this is a huge opportunity we cannot afford to take advantage of and improve on. Thanks. >> Thank you, councelor. >> Um, >> sorry, GM Kennedy, go ahead. >> Yeah, thanks. I just like to acknowledge the the comments uh through the chair to councelor Casar. um we are on this journey and would be happy to hear from you or connect offline about how we may support sharing this message more broadly with the public. So, thank you for your for your comments and your commitment to this. Um I do hope that through this, you know, the the responses today are focused on the audit response because that's the report that's here. Um there is work underway and the reason we're able to share that three of those have already been completed and others have already been started um is because we have heard this and we are working on it but happy to hear more about your ideas of how we can tell these stories more clearly with the public. So thank you. >> Yeah. >> Thank you GM Kennedy. >> Uh any other uh questions on the presentation? Okay. Um I don't know if we have a mover and second to receive the presentation. We do not. Councelor Alex Wilson, Councelor Wang. Um is this electronic vote? Hand vote, please. Show of hands to receive the presentation that carries. Thank you. Uh do any committee members want to discuss the confidential appendix B? Okay. Um where are we here? All right. So, I need a mover and second to approve the recommendations contained within the report. Councelor Wang, Councelor Alex Wilson. Last call. No more comments. We'll go to the electronic vote. The vote is up. Councelor Clark is a thumbs up. And that carries six to zero. And just before we move on to motion, uh on behalf of this committee, thank you to the staff um that presented. Thank you to the auditor. Um I think this is a really good opportunity to put the city back on track. Um lots of money and capital. We got to make sure we're delivering it on time, on budget, and to the best of our ability for the residents. So, I appreciate all of staff's serious concern on that matter. Uh, I'm going to hand over the chair to councelor Wang if that is okay. I do have a motion to introduce. Thank you, Councelor Wang. This motion's moved by myself, second by councelor Moren Wilson. Uh, it's an amendment to the recommendations contained in minute item 8.6. Um, respecting report CM260006. Um, it was approved at council on June 3rd. I'm going to go to the therefore be it resolved that subsection of the council decision from June 3rd respecting minute item 8.6 six of GIC 260008 report CM26006 corporate continuous improvement program be amended to include additional subsections DE and F and to read as follows that the launch of the corporate continuous improvement program intended to advance the city's organizational efficiency effectiveness and service delivery be approved uh B that uh to expedite council direct the city manager to procure the services of an external consultant pursuant to policy 11 non-competitive procurement to complete the continuous improvement procurement exercise with any excess funding required to be funded through the tax stabilization reserve be approved. staff be directed to report back to the GIC on an annual basis on the program progress. That the continuous improvement procurement exercise include a review of the city's procurement practices and processes benchmarked against other Ontario municipalities of similar size and include an examination of whether outsourcing or partnering with qualified private sector procurement firms could improve efficiency, reduce costs, and significantly shorten procurement timelines while maintaining transparency, fairness, and public accountability. and identifying opportunities to delegate appropriate procurement related decisions, streamline approval requirements, and eliminate unnecessary administrative delays while maintaining appropriate safeguards and council oversight. That in addition to the continuous improvement procurement exercise, the external consultant advised on the feasibility of establishing project time frames requiring every construction project facility through a competitive procurement process to have a defined timelines, milestones, and accountability for delays from budget approval to the award of contract. And that in addition to the annual report back, the city manager report back to council in Q Q4 of 2027 on the results of the independent review with recommendations to improve efficiencies, measurable targets, and an implementation timeline of all recommendations. And I'll just speak briefly to this. Um I think Southakota is is one uh example. Um but for me uh we've um increased our capital budget by a extremely large amount um with large projects but also smaller projects and I don't believe we're in a position to be able to deliver those projects in a timely manner. Um, we've seen delays. Uh, we've seen some issues with projects and this is not a shot from me to staff. This is me trying to help be so we can deliver more um for the money that we've asked from our residents. And right now, I don't think we're there. So if this review shows us that maybe we need to out outside help to ensure that we're getting stuff through design, getting stuff through pro procurement and getting stuff delivered for residents. I think it's money well spent cuz right now we're seeing delays in sidewalk work. We're seeing delays in shave and paves. We're seeing cost overruns and delays on major capital projects like South Coat. So, it's hard to be able to say to residents, hey, we're investing in our capital because our city needs to and then not being able to deliver projects on a timely manner. People want to see money. They want to see their money being spent. They want to seeing spent wisely and quickly. So, that's why I brought this forward and uh I'll leave it there. Thank you, chair. >> Thank you. Speakers list is open. Councelor Alex Wilson, please. Um you're going to have to turn on his mic, though. Yeah, thank you. Uh through the acting chair, just a couple of questions so I can understand what's changing from the past direction to now because we're we're editing past direction. So that's that's the root of my questions. Um is the intention of the motion and I think this is a question of the mover because it's just about what we're intending to do here. Is the intention of the motion to replace the previous um review or to add additional things that you'd like? So, for example, under deenf there's some additional criteria, but the original review uh came from a motion from councelor Clark and BD, I believe, that asked staff to come up with a proposal. Staff came up with a proposal um in a previous report in appendix A that listed dozens of things to include. Are you kind of crossing out those dozen things and saying only report on these three? Are you saying report on those dozen plus these three? >> Yeah, I'm I would say they're they're separate for me. This is more about expediting the review, using getting the city manager to direct uh or to oversee the review. This would I would say be in conjunction with what the continuous improvement department would be doing. >> So the the review that was because this is crossing out a previous direction. So I'm just trying to understand if the intention is to delete the previous direction and replace it with these three items or what I think I heard from you is to say no no no we're already doing a continuous review activity but I'd like these things to be included in it but we're acknowledging there's already a review activity going. I'm just trying to trying to understand like what the activity ultimately is in conjunction to the the previous staff report and that appendix um and those outcomes and so I've heard from the mover that it's not the intention to stop doing that other work >> that other work is h that other work I think continues for me this work is directed by the city manager as opposed to the continuous improvement uh department or program as it's called here and it directs to go to a policy 11 with a external internal consultant so we can expedite the review and get that back to us sooner so we can implement some hopefully positive change. >> Thank you. And through the acting chair, appreciate the mover's clarification on intent. Um that helps me understand a lot of what what we're trying to do here. I do have a question for finance staff just on uh what is clause B which is the money clause. Uh my understanding is that the original um motion and kind of direction um had the same 300K had the same project ID. What I'm not understanding is with any excess funding required to be funded through the tax stabilization reserve to be approved. So there was an existing project with an existing defined scope um and there was an existing price tag for that scope. I understand there's an attempt to move that forward faster potentially and also add some things to that review. Makes sense to me. Are we spending is it still we're anticipating to have the same budget for it? I'm just not understanding the need for the policy 11. Have we not currently procured that work already from the previous direction? just trying to understand at a point in time how do we move this forward and what's the financial implication >> director I get I echo please >> through the chair thank you councelor Wilson um just for clarification so it's it's my opinion and understanding that the original report still stays but this augments that report and the additional wording in section B um speaks to the additional scope that we're adding to the report that came to committee in June. So 300,000 was earmarked for the continuous improvement project. However, with the additional scope that cancerous is presenting today, we're probably going to need more money. So that's why we put the inclusion of the excess funding to come from the tax stabilization reserve. >> Thank you. where we scope the work. And to your question, we are currently in um the development of the scope of work and we are having preliminary conversations with an external consultant. Um but where we're scoping the work, if we can scope out the additional work that we're speaking of today, uh perhaps we delineate the cost of that and and use the tax stabilization fund. It's still up to be decided. >> No worries. Would it be possible to get a um a potential language regarding uh up to an upset limit from staff for council? I'm not trying to say no today. I'm just trying to think of some things to maybe make this a little cleaner for council. And so if staff could provide that, I don't think the counselor is going to have that info, but just what an good upper limit is. So it's not a never-ending upper limit. Um if I could through the chair, I just have one other question. >> Go ahead. Um, okay. So, sorry. I think then, no, I I don't maybe if I've heard then it's clarificating. We're just adding a couple things. We're going to understand what the cost of that is and it's all still coming back. We're not replacing the existing direction. Um, I might just work with the mover and secondary offline and CC staff just with a couple things that it was hard for me to understand. So, just if that could be clarified um because that way I think we're all clear on what the report back is coming. I don't necessarily have a specific concern with the additional information we're trying to get back. My concern was we were not going to get the other things back and instead we're replacing it with this. So, appreciating that this is just trying to get more info. Um I happy to support the motion today and just maybe some amendments for council and I'm seeing that staff have raised their hands so flagging that for the acting chair. >> Okay. City manager please. >> Yeah. through through the acting chair. Um I just want to add in terms of the previous um direction is I'm interpreting this motion as adding some further clarity with respect to the previous direction and trying to balance some quick wins with respect to this body of work as uh along with some longer structural opportunities going forward. And so uh that is how I'm interpreting in consultation with uh director uh and uh subject to ratification of council is we will we will ultimately take council approved rat ratified direction and look to execute it uh and report back and if there are some quick win opportunities we will report back earlier with respect to those opportunities uh and then try to achieve the broader objective as outlined. Okay, thank you very much. Uh, another call out for speakers on this. Seeing none, may I have the vote, please? Vote is up. Thank you, Councelor Clark. Counselor Cretch, are you still with us? Okay. And that vote carries five to zero. Chairs, back to you. >> Thank you, Councelor Wang. Uh, any notice of motion? Seeing none, we will move on to private and confidential. Um, I do need a mover and second to permit the following individuals into closed session. Um, David Fenown. I don't think we need that one anymore. Sorry. Am I using the wrong ones? Yeah, I am. There we go. So, we need a mover and second to permit the following individuals into close session. Darren Jones from Valencia Ricks, Aaron Fer, who I know I probably butchered the last name for Valencia as well. Mover and seconder, Councelor Wang, Councelor Alex Wilson. Show of hands, please. Just one sec. We got to ensure we still have quorum for the meeting. I only see four. >> Councelor Clark, are you still with us? >> We'll just pause for a moment just to make sure we have a couple counselors online. We just need to make sure they're there so we ensure we have quorum to continue the meeting. If everybody can just uh give us a few minutes, we'll be right back. Uh still good morning soon to be good afternoon. Uh just to let the public and everyone know we will wait 15 minutes from 11:52 to see if we can regain quorum. If we cannot then we will adjourn the meeting. Thank you. Good afternoon. Uh we have lost quorum. We've waited our 15 minutes. We will now adjourn uh the meeting. Thank you and have a good day.