Good afternoon everyone. We will call the 13th meeting of the community and protective services committee to order. The city of London is situated on the traditional lands of the Inishnabek, Hodneson, Lenapoic and Adawandran. We honor and respect the history, languages, and culture of the diverse indigenous people who call this territory home. The city of London is currently home to many First Nations, Matei, and Inuit today. As representatives of the people of the city of London, we are grateful to have the opportunity to work and live in this territory. Okay. Uh just one more announcement and that is the city of London is committed to making every effort to provide alternate formats and communication support for meetings upon request. To make a request specific to this meeting, please contact CPSC atlondon.ca or 519-661-2489 extension 2425. We will go to item one which is disclosures of pecuniary interest. Seeing none, uh we'll go to the consent items. I've been asked to pull 2.2 for delegation and 2.3 as well. So that means we have item 2.1 that we'll be dealing with, which is the fourth report of the accessibility community advisory committee. Looking for a mover on that item. I have councelor Ferrer and councelor Hopkins. Thank you. Looking for any discussion. Councelor Hopkins, please go ahead. Just want to share my thanks to the advisory group for their report. >> Thank you. Any other speakers on this item? Okay, seeing none, we'll open that in the system. >> Trust votes yes. >> Closing the vote. The motion carries 5 to zero. Okay, we have no scheduled items. So, we're going to move to item four, which is items for direction. And then we'll revisit the two items from consent that were pulled uh and we'll deal with those under deferred matters and additional business. So, uh item four is uh 4.1. Uh councelor Frank has brought a letter addressing chronic non-compliance in vacant buildings. I'll look for a mover and seconder to put this item on the floor and we'll begin discussion. Councelor Hopkins. Thank you. and councelor Ferrer. Thank you. And I'll look for speakers. Councelor Frank, did you want to introduce the item? Go ahead. >> Thank you and appreciate the opportunity to speak to it as I'm not a committee member. And as you can see from the letter, this really has been predicated from a specific situation that happened on baseline this summer where a house that was vacant uh exploded. And I'm bringing this forward at this point because I've realized over the last couple years that not all vacant buildings are the same in the city and that the higher risk and non-compliant buildings that are not properly maintained, I think require a different response from the city and make it more proportional to the risk that we see. Um when we see these properties fall into disrepair and become vacant, uh it becomes a recurring problem for the neighborhood. The neighbors and city staff, emergency services and taxpayers end up bearing the brunt of it. And we currently have 187 of these houses on the list and I would like to see um you know in the future these houses not burning down, not exploding uh and making sure that neighbors are safe. So this uh request outlines a series of actions for staff to report back on being a little bit more proactive in our approach and I think more strategic uh again trying to identify the high-risisk properties a little bit earlier um and trying to make sure that they're better secured that we have a complete list that is matched the same between fire police and city bylaw and making sure that um folks are communicating clearly and coordinating across all the services and really focusing thing on the outcome. So, just making sure that those buildings are as secure as possible. Um, I've heard anecdotally, you know, someone will get in and then it'll go and get uh the the plywood and the screws put back on the windows and and the doors and 2 days later somebody's back in. So, that clearly is not um you know, the most effective way of safeguarding the building. And uh I do think it'd be really great if we can um look into the possibility of having the fire department be able to issue fines as well. My understanding is uh they potentially could be issuing amps when they're visiting and that's another way that we can look at cost recovery because right now that is borne by the taxpayer who you know doesn't necessarily want to be paying for that upkeep of the vacant properties and that should ultimately rest with the appropriate party. So, that's a little summary of the motion, but as you can see, it's it's further outlined and has been uh put on the agenda. And really, it's just trying to deal with when the issue of vacancy becomes neglect and how do we proactively address it. >> Thank you. Looking for other speakers on this item. >> Councilor Ferrer. >> Uh thank you, Chair. Um, so I would be more than happy uh to support this motion and uh I I obviously saw in the news uh uh the specific property that councelor Frank was speaking to, but I would also say and as other counselors know that this is a systemic issue across the city. I would call out specifically 366 Central A. Go check that one out. This has been going on for 15 plus years. uh there's a lot of issues with that property and there's a lot of negative impacts that happen uh with the neighbors uh directly um adjacent to the property and the neighborhood itself. So I'm totally supportive of this. I would like to see some proactive moves on it and I'm going to be fully supporting this. I think this is great work by councelor Frank. So thank you. >> Thank you. Looking for other speakers. Councelor Traso, go ahead. Um yes, just to briefly um indicate my support for this um for this measure and like like the previous speaker just said, this has been a recurring problem. This is not a one a one-off that uh happened tragically at this at this address. This is very similar to things that have been happening across the city. In other words, and there's no point going through all of them or trying to uh reassess uh what went wrong. I think that um we we are going to need to move forward in terms of how we address problems problem properties. We have a very very broad regulatory framework to work from. We have very broad nuisance abatement uh policies written into the law. We have very very strong uh we have very strong support in uh in the in the in the legal framework for the ability of our enforcement officials to perhaps be a little more aggressive than they've been in the past. And fundamentally this is a question of public safety. It's not it it first and foremost it it bears on the health and welfare of people who are living in units that become dilapidated and not cared for. But it also has an effect throughout the entire um neighborhood as as we as we see when an incident like this happens the the um the the bad effects don't stop at the property border. So again, uh, very happy that this is coming forward and I'm in full support. Thank you, >> Councelor Hopkins. >> Yes. Uh, thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Councelor Frank, for bringing this forward. I do have a question maybe through you to staff on the properties that are now neglected and what is the process? It, this motion deals with a report coming back to us in the second quarter of 2027. And I I I think it's uh important to also know what what are we doing um right now with neglected properties. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Feffer >> through the chair. So we do have some uh legislation bylaws currently that we look at when we go to these properties that are potentially considered to be neglected. We would look at the property standards bylaw, the vacant buildings bylaw, and the yard and lot maintenance bylaw. If we identify violations or infractions of any of those, then we we would issue orders, we would require compliance, and we would in some instances work with the property owner to ensure that compliance is achieved. Often times, if this is an ongoing process, then we um undertake that work ourselves, and the property owner would be responsible for the costs associated to that. >> Councelor Hopkins. And as a follow-up question to that, so thank you uh for bringing us up up to date on what we're doing now. Is it complaint driven mainly? >> Miss Beffer, >> thank you through the chair. It can be complaint driven, but we do have a proactive um procedure currently that we work um sort of in tandem with the fire department in conducting uh proactive inspections. So we have the registry of vacant buildings. we have identified the problematic properties on that registry and those properties get um additional attention in the form of inspections. Um those inspections are conducted relatively regularly. Uh the fire department does so on a monthly basis and of course we do so based on a complaint but also uh as our vacant building municipal law enforcement officer schedules them throughout the month. >> Councelor Hopkins. >> Yeah, thank you uh for the information. I'm pleased to know that we're doing something. Um, very supportive of can we be doing it a better way. So, uh, we'll be supporting the motion. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh, councelor Pville, will you take the chair? >> I have the chair and I I recognize councelor Ramen. >> Thank you. Uh, and I want to thank councelor Frank for the letter and uh, addressing some of the concerns in the area. I know this has been an ongoing uh issue at the property, but also uh when this hit the news and was discussed um in the public sphere, I know there were a lot of people that were looking uh for for answers and wanted to know what is the process. And so I think that it was helpful to say here's what we're currently doing, but here's how we can do better. Um very helpful, I think, uh as we all face these issues. Um, one question I had uh through you uh presiding officer to staff is just um how do counselors become aware of the problem buildings other than from complaints from residents? >> Thank you and going to the staff for their feedback >> through the presiding officer. That's a great question and and generally speaking I recognize that uh you primarily become aware through complaints from your constituents. What I can say is that we can certainly have conversations about specific properties if they come to your attention or if they come to our attention and we believe that there's a requirement to have that discussion. We are cautious about the vacant building registry being public information and the reason for that is again public safety. Uh we would not want um to provide specific information in relation to vacant buildings to folks that may not be readily apparent by driving past. Of course, there are some properties where if you travel past that property, you know very well that it's a vacant building, but there are others that are not so obvious, and we wouldn't want the general public um necessarily being made aware of that. >> Thank you, councelor. >> Uh thank you. Is there an opportunity for council to receive an annual update on problem buildings within uh an closed session or in some other format? >> Going to the staff through the presiding officer. Yes, I think that there would be an opportunity for that annual update. We could certainly look at it if we take this work back and come up with a format that would be acceptable for all. >> Thank you, councelor. >> Thank you. So, um, the reason I bring this up is I know for from my experience, um, until someone feels that they need to escalate an issue with a vacant building to maybe the level of a counselor, you may not be aware that there is a vacant building that that maybe even complaints that you've received are on a vacant building. Um, and then from the process of trying to get a status update on what's been done and what the follow-through is uh from staff, there's also a limitation to what counselors have been told in the past. So, this would be an opportunity for us to better understand what steps have been taken as well. I think we need to understand the costs better. Um, one of the challenges that I find is that we may not be able to really get a sense of how often are our, you know, London, how often is London fire being called out, how often is staff being called out? Because I think if we got a better idea of that, it would let us provide the proper resources, but also make sure our costs or amps or levies, etc. are all meeting the requirement uh to be able to address some of these problematic buildings. So, thank you for the conversation um here at committee and I look forward to receiving the report back. >> Just from the chair, councelor Ramen, you were uh Miss Feffer, she she said that there's an opportunity for us to come back with the list into confidential matter. Is it something you would like to address right now or would you like to leave it for now with the staff? >> I can uh You mean as a as an amendment? I think if staff were satisfied to to bring that part back in the Q2 2027 report, I could do it without doing a motion. >> Okay. Thank you. And I see an from the staff and I'm returning chair back to you. >> Thank you. Great job. Uh I'll go to councelor Mallister. >> Uh thank you and through the chair. Um appreciate the opportunity to speak as I'm not a member of this committee. Uh I have had a number of uh buildings that I would say fall in this category. So appreciative of councelor Franken bringing this forward. Uh I'm sure we all have some problematic properties we'd like addressed. Uh I'm curious to know in terms of how we would envision an expanded role of the fire department. Um because from what I've seen I have a number of buildings where um it's the same thing. It's like groundhog day. It's a fire. Uh essentially counselors are in a very reactive position where we get information after the fact. uh understand obviously like the media will run stories but uh kind of building on uh what councelor Rom was saying it would be nice even if fire could provide us with some sort of list in terms of you know frequent properties that have had fire issues uh just so it's on our radar because I I do find right now we are in a a position where we are responding with not necessarily accurate information. Um we're being asked uh quite frequently by residents, there's been this many fires, why isn't something happening? So just greater coordination between bylaw and fire. Um if that can be incorporated into some sort of report as was asked. Uh I'm just curious in terms of um what could be shared today. Maybe I know there is obviously cooperation between fire and bylaw, but um for those you know repeat offenders um how are we dealing with them and in terms of the escalation process, how we work through that currently and perhaps what we could see in the future with that. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith and I understand Deputy Chief Heptitch is also on available. Thank you. And through the chair, I can start. And that the um the the note on the agenda talks about increased coordination between uh police, fire, and uh municipal compliance. We already work very closely with them. So, it was my understanding that this would be we would work collaborative together on the report back which may include the annual update. Um fire also has to follow the provincial act and some very strict rules and regulations. So, I like the point that it's in camera, but um 100% we will look at that and work collaboratively on the report back. Um Deputy Chief Heptitch, is there anything I'm missing? >> Thank you. I'll go to the Deputy Chief. Maybe you covered it all. So, we'll we'll take it as that. And if there's any followup, I'm sure he can. Oh, he's he's >> One second. He's coming back in. Hold on. >> Hi, Deputy Chief Pepage. We can see you. You may go ahead. Do you have anything to add? >> You're on mute. >> My apologies. >> Thank you. And through the chair, I I will state that uh we do have uh our fire crews attend properties on a monthly basis. Um we're happy to continue coordinating with bylaw. Um what I will say is when we're when we're made aware of the issues um they are escalated through uh enforcement and from there there is a a process that is followed where the building or property can be secured. Just so you're aware, there was a little bit of feedback, but we think it's on your end if maybe you are able to to mute something on your end. Um, counselor, does that satisfy you in terms of an answer? >> Uh, I do have a follow-up if I could. >> Go ahead. >> Uh, thank you. and through you. Uh just in terms of a follow-up with fire, um appreciate in terms of um you know, past interactions I've had with fire, understand in terms of the investigations that have to go on. Um but I think there's like a level of reassurance I think that the public are looking for, especially when you've had a property with multiple fires, say in a short amount of time. Um the response is often we've, you know, done our investigation, the building has now been secured. But in terms of the condition of the building, the state it's in, uh I I just think more could be done in terms of a condition assessment maybe being provided. Not disclosing any details, but I I I think from the public's perspective, it's hard for them to believe that a building that has successive fires is in a a state which um you know, obvious could be structurally sound, maybe not. Um but just being able to provide some further detail to the public. I'm not asking for a lot. Uh I understand there is a list, but uh I I do think some of these buildings have had so many fires that it's just hard for people to believe that they can be in a in a state which uh you know wouldn't warrant further action or perhaps even demolition. That those are just concerns I've heard in the past that uh we often reach a point where we we we have those discussions. But um just if fire could ever provide a bit more, I think that would help the public understand, okay, there's a fire, you've done your your job. um the building's being secured and it's an estate which they shouldn't be concerned about. So just some feedback for for fire on that. I have no other questions. >> Thank you. And I'll take that as comment. Okay. I had councelor Ferrer for second time. Go ahead. >> Thank you chair. Thanks for recognizing me for a second time. So as I'm listening to this discussion, um there was something that I was kind of coming to mind. I wanted to know if I could just go to staff because we did have a conversation about potentially looking into the recovery of the costs for the regular inspections by the London Fire Department for vacant buildings under the registry. So wondering if staff could just uh remind us of um was there any direction from council? I believe that was during maybe an AGM or an annual stakeholders review from the London Fire Department. I wanted to know if we had any direction to staff to look into that. >> Thank you. You have a good memory. Okay, I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And through the chair, we are going through a detailed user fee review which will include as part of the rec recommendation for some areas such as fire. Is it a user fee or is it an AMP? So, we are currently have started that work. It will be for um 2027 user fees and is part of the next 4-year multi-year budget. So we are doing a con comprehensive review of all user fees in my service area and that includes fire too. >> Thank you followup counselor. >> Thank you. So specifically will that comprehensive review for the user fees include the potential of requiring vacant property owners to pay for the inspections the regular inspections from the London Fire Department regardless if it's emergency response or not. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. and through the chair that will be yes that will be looked at as part of the review. Part of our review too is looking at are there new fees that we currently aren't charging for that uh we will add to it. So all of those will be part of our review looking at what other municipalities do and bringing that forward. >> Thank you. Councelor, are you asking for this also as a subsection of the report back here? >> I would if that's uh the direction we should go. That's why I'm asking the question as it is because like I know that there's consensus on council to remove these costs from the uh tax base and if these are regular inspections for especially prolonged vacant buildings um I think there's a consensus here to have um you know the property owners of those vacant buildings pay for the extra service that it is getting from the London Fire Department for those inspections. So that's really kind of what I'm trying to boil it down to. I want to take the costs off of the tax base and I want to put the costs onto uh the holders of these vacant properties. Um that could be used as both an incentive to do some work and fix up the vacant properties, put them back online. Um and it also obviously will take the the pressure off of the tax base and give us some savings. So that's that's really what my question is going. Um and I just wanted to know do you need direction from this committee right now to do that? >> Thank you. So, the way I read part four of this motion is identifying potential mechanisms to recover municipal costs associated with repeated emergency responses to vacant properties as part and parcel of the discussion that we're having and part of the the additional levy ramp from from the fire department. >> Thank you. That's what I'm looking at too. But I see cost associated with repeated emergency responses. And that's why I'm asking the question because I would read this part as associated with only emergency responses and I am speaking to the regular inspections. >> Understood. Okay. >> Part E of the motion just in the ecribing making sure we have covered. Uh, so exploring the possibility of allowing the the fire department staff to issue amps for fire code related violations, but you're asking for inspection. So, you would like to amend it then to put in inspection costs. I would. Um, I have some language here that I drafted up very quickly. Apologies for this last minute draft. Um, I'll go to Skyler or to Council Frank first before I put anything forward to see what she thinks. >> Hang on a second. So, are you looking to put an amendment on the floor? If so, then we should entertain your language and then look for a seconder. And if we have a seconder, then we'll begin debate on that item. >> Uh, yes. Uh, if the chair will permit me, I would like to make an amendment for um a part a last part for exploring um the requirement to recover costs from vacant buildings for regular inspections from the London Fire Department for the vacant building registry. Okay, I have a seconder for that. Just a moment as we write it up. >> Counselor, can you just forward your language by email to us so that we have it correct? >> I I can do that. It's a little choppier than what I said it. So if you you can clean it up to make it make sense. Council Ferrer can just restate it please. exploring uh the requirement to recover costs from the vacant buildings from vacant buildings uh for regular inspections from the London Fire Department for the vacant building registry. Was that part E that you were amending? >> I think it would fit there. It should be up in escribe if you could just take a look at it. Okay. So, the motion's been moved and seconded. Looking for debate on this item for the amendment. Councelor Frank. Thanks. Yes, this is actually what Part E hardy said, but if it makes everyone feel better, then uh I don't mind this addition. is repeating the same thing twice, but I if it makes people feel better, then that's great. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh I'm reading it as slightly different, so that's why I'm agreeing to the motion because I don't see it as redundant. Uh councelors, go ahead. >> Yes, through the chair, I read it as different as well. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother to second it. Um, I don't I don't want to do another amendment here, but I just want to flag something, and that is if there are going to be additional costs to the city, is it too early for us to be thinking about asking you to prepare a business plan for the 2028 four-year budget? And I'm not putting that on the table now. I just want to flag that as something that early in the next council term, we should be thinking we should be thinking about that. And I'll leave I'll leave that there for now because it might be that we are going to have to incur some additional startup costs which hopefully we can recoup but we might not be able to right at the beginning. So I don't need a response to that. >> Thank you. And on the amendment any other speakers? >> Okay. Seeing none we'll open that in the system votes yes. Closing the vote. The motion carries five to zero. >> Thank you. Can I use the same mover and seconder for the main motion as amended? Councelor Hopkins, that okay? Yeah. Okay. Councelor Ferrer. Thank you. Okay. Any speakers on the ma main motion as amended? Okay. Seeing no additional speakers on this item, we will open the vote. Trusso votes yes. >> Closing the vote. The motion passes 5 to zero. Thank you. That takes us to our deferred matters from above. Uh the first is item 2.2 2 which was the parks and recreation master plan. Um we have some added communication but we had an added delegation request from El Butterfield and so I will look for a mover and seconder to allow for the delegation. I have councelor Hopkins and councelor Ferrer. Thank you and we will open that in the system in just a moment. crosso votes yes. >> Closing the vote. The motion carries 5 to zero. Thank you. I'll invite Miss Butterfield to the microphone. Thank you so much for joining us in person today. Uh you will have 5 minutes. I will let you know when you're about 30 seconds away. Please begin when you're ready. >> Perfect. Thank you. Good afternoon everyone and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak here today. I'm here to talk about something that for me is much more than just sport. It's a sport called netball. If you've never heard about it, it's the the easiest way I can describe it is that it's a little bit like basketball, but without the dribbling, without the running, with the ball, and thankfully without needing to be over 7 foot tall. It's a fast-paced team sport traditionally popular in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, and many many other countries around the world, including Canada. Canada does have a national team. Toronto already have many um competitive adult leagues, as does BC. So, there's already a foundation for the sport in Canada. But my vision is a little bit different for London. I don't simply want to create another adult sport league. My main aim is to introduce netball to younger boys and girls, giving children an opportunity to discover a sport that they may never experience before, develop confidence in teamwork, make friends, and hopefully grow the sport. I've played net for over 30 years and coached for several years, including competitive club and youth teams. So, I've seen firsthand what Nepal can offer. And the great thing about Nepal is that there really is a place for everyone. It can be competitive, recreational, or simply getting about and being active. There's even walking net, which is a fantastic opportunity for people returning from injury, getting back into exercise, or looking for something lower impact. Although once people get competitive, even even walking net surprisingly becomes very serious. The benefits go beyond physical fitness. NEP helps with cardiovascular health, strength, agility, coordination, and balance. But it also it also supports confidence, mental well-being, social connection, and a sense of belonging. There's one phrase that this sport that I particularly love and it is here if you need. In the shooting circle, a feeder is is is there as an option if the shooter is under pressure or needs to make a pass out. And that simp that player simply shouts, "Here if you need." And if you think about it, that's exactly what Nepal become within our communities. Here if you need somewhere to be active, here if you need someone somewhere to belong here if you need to make friends. Here if you're returning from injury, here if you're if you're new to the community. Ultimately, it isn't just about a ball, a net, and a court. It's about people, connection, and opportunity. I'd love to start small, introduce children to the sport, build interest, and over time create opportunities for youth, recreational, competitive, and walking net. I'm not looking to replace any sport that already exists. I want to add another opportunity for all for all our communities. And if you don't know what netball is, come and have a go. and I promise I'll tell you the rules before I make your run around the court. Thank you. >> Thank you. And so we appreciate you coming out to speak to us. Um we are dealing with item 2.2 which is the parks and recreation master plan 2026 update. Uh I before we take a mover in secondary, I just wanted to provide staff an opportunity if there's anything you'd like to say or add um about the the report that's in front of us today. Thank you very much. >> I'll go to Miss Smith. Sorry. >> Thank you very much and through the chair. So the update before you provides a refresh of our existing uh parks and rec master plan is making sure our parks, our recreation facilities and our open spaces continue to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly diverse population. So, we've looked at this broadly and considered the projected uh increase in population to approximately 593,000 residents by 2020 by 2042. We began this work in 2025. The update aligns with and will contribute to the future development charges background study and the future multi-year budget processes. This uh re the recommendations which you will see attached in this report modernizes our parkland policies. It establishes new provision targets for emerging recreational amenities, sports, etc. It also identifies strategies to improve equity, accessibility, sustainability, and climate resilience across our parks and recreation systems. It provides a long-term framework to guide future capital investment, future partnership opportunities, and growth related funding decisions through to 2042. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh I will look for a mover and a seconder for the update. Councelor Purbble. Councelor Hopkins. Thank you. And I'll look for speakers on this item. >> Councelor Ple, go ahead. >> So the chair to the staff and Miss Smith, you just mentioned about the multi-year budget, but I just want to make sure you are coming back early 2027. If the process stays the same as almost four years ago, uh our finance team was working during the August on all the cases, the budgeting and then September they were proposing the multi-year budget to us. That was the first round. The way this is timed, are you in coordination with finance and there will be no issues that potentially this would be outstanding and finance cannot move forward on calculating and including this in the multi-year budget to be presented to the new council. Can you please confirm that and maybe elaborate on that one? >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you and through the chair. We work very closely with our colleagues in finance uh on this both for the um DC background study but also for the future multi-year budgets. Typically, this master plan will have a 10 to 15year uh time frame. So, this will be more than just the next u multi-year budget in 2028, but it'll probably be the next three u multi-year budgets that we will start uh planning for the implementation of these recommendations and the potential costs, whether they be both capital andor operating. >> Councelor Privile, >> thank you for that. I do have followup to kind of more specific ones. Um uh in my in my ward the neighborhoods it's always you know pickle ball court, tennis court. Uh is there going to be a certain and that certainly doesn't have to be during this part but uh is your department is your staff planning to look at this on the existing courts and potentially uh reevaluate it potentially where it could be more tennis more pickle ball. Can you please comment on that? >> Thank you. >> Thank you and through the chair that's a very good question. And in appendix B of the report, it we updated our facility inventories, provision targets, and needs. And as I mentioned, we also included a number of new provision targets for emerging activities such as pickle ball, cricket, disc golf, adult exercise stations, community gardens, and uh dog off leash areas. So you will see in appendix uh B it talks about what our current supply is what the uh provision targets are if there's any changes and then it looks to the additional facilities that are required. So when you look at that uh column that is where we will lay that out over the next number of multi-year budgets the additional facilities column >> council privile >> okay thank you for that uh uh the delegate was speaking about the net ball any consideration any plans was it on our radar screen >> Miss Smith >> thank you I can start and then turn it over to Mr. Gonagle. Uh that's a very good question and as you know when I when I listened to this and and learned about netball it reminded me of uh many years ago when we had the similar conversations about cricket and pickle ball as emerging sports. So we work very closely with our recreation team and our programs and often create new and emerging opportunities and activities through our recreation programs to introduce sport. I like that the the purpose of this is in introduce this sport or this activity to all ages and the younger generation. So a really good opportunity to do that and we've done in the past with many sports and activities and to is to introduce that with key experts from the community into our recreation programs. But I will turn it to Mr. Ponogle if I've missed anything. >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. Uh thank you and through the chair. Uh as it relates to netball, I I think there may be some opportunities for us to try out some uh dropin programs uh as an example. I think the reality for uh net ball at this time and appreciate uh Miss Butterfield's uh commentary, passion uh and enthusiasm and uh I come from a home from Commonwealth countries as well and netball uh is big uh in Commonwealth countries. Um, in terms of its national or Ontario footprint, uh, there is an Ontario um, provincial sport organization for netball, there currently is only 13 clubs uh, in the province and they generally are um, uh, grouped around the GTA. Uh, so what I would say at this time is I think there are some opportunities for us to test out the market to see if the demand exists. Uh, but I think it's important to note the master plan responds to demonstrated demand. uh that that is what guides municipal investment. So I think that demonstrated demand uh is is uh relevant here. Uh and I don't think net ball is is at that um emerging activity uh based on demonstrated demand although I think it I think it'll get there over time. >> Thank you >> councelor Purple. >> Thank you for that. Is there still now opportunity from now till the final report comes back for public to provide feedback to be still on get involved pages or what are the best ways because there are certain groups of course uh uh just like for netball that they are they want to push the sport they are close to forward what would be the best way to let the counselors and the staff know through which path >> thank you I'll go to Miss Smith >> thank you and through the chair there are many avenues. We often every year um survey and talk to our our current uses users of our program and the community and the groups on on what they're seeing, what they want, what new activities or what activities are no longer working when it comes to recreation programs. Um we do have other avenues such as today coming to council. So, uh, we'll always follow up on any interest from our community members in sharing a sport or an activity, uh, with the community. And am I missing any, Mr. McGonagle? >> I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. >> No, I I I I think Miss Smith's hit it. I I think the reality as counselors know is whether or not there's an open opportunity or not, uh the public is is great at communicating their thoughts and ideas for future activities and and we love the open feedback loop that we have with residents on these matters on an ongoing nature. >> Councelor Perval, >> uh for this plan on the get involved page, will there be will there be still an opportunity for them to provide feedback? >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. Thank you. went through the chair. Uh no, this get involved page was provided uh separately uh for the development of the master plan. At some point we have to take the recommendations incorporate them into a a final plan knowing that final plan doesn't mean there can't be changes and additions over the year. And then we have other avenues through the city website and our our recreational emails and activities for people to provide us input on uh programs programs they like programs they have challenges with and programs they'd like to see. >> Councelor. >> Okay. Thank you. I'll finish it with a comment and uh you know if I take out city of London's the critical issues that we have and we've been dealing with uh over the years with certainly with this council I always said that this plan and also the master mobility plan will determine the quality of life for Londoners for next many years. So I certainly am I'm very pleased what I see in front but I just hope that the uh what's going to be presented in 2027 will be able to be implemented in very near future just like as the rest of the half a million of Londoners. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Okay, so I have quite a speaker list. I have uh councelor Hopkins next followed by councelor Ferrer. I do see Deputy Mayor Lewis's hand up as well but I will see if any of the other committee members want to jump on the list before I go to visiting counselors as well. Councelor Hopkins, you're next. >> Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, um, Miss Butterfield, for your delegation. I would definitely encourage you to uh um be involved in in surveys and reaching out to uh recreational sports and in the city of London. I grew up playing net ball, so I know what a benefit is. uh it is new here but I I think uh testing things out and being involved in programs obviously uh school school boards as well is a great opportunity to start introducing the sport. I do want to make a comment on the um master plan update uh and have a question sorry I have a a question regarding uh the appendix A. I'm very supportive of a number of these initiatives going forward in particular the off leash area network um um the network as well as the new off leash areas uh to it's really important that we uh when we see large large subdivision developments uh really getting developers involved in amenity spaces uh especially in high density areas uh we can do a had a job and I was really pleased to see this in in appendex A. So very supportive of that. I do have a question on number eight alternative dedication rate just for you madam chair maybe uh to staff wanting to have a better understanding uh on exactly what that means when it comes to updating the Parkland dedication bylaw to include alternative Parkland rates for residential development. just uh I don't want to um get too much into the weeds, but want to have a better understanding what that means. >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. >> Thank you. you and through the chair. Uh alternative parkland dedication rates are uh permitted uh under the planning act and and uh the intention of alternative parkland dedication rates is to recognize the impact of density and units uh on parkland dedication uh as opposed to parkland dedication that's tied to the lot size or square footage of the parcel of land. Uh, and so the city of London currently, um, and DC finances here, so uh, they'll certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but, uh, uh, alternative parkland dedication rates currently aren't in, uh, our bylaw. Uh, and so, uh, it is something that we're exploring exactly to address what you have just, uh, mentioned, which is the impact on density on parkland availability. Thank you. >> Thank you. I'll go to councelor Hopkins. >> Yeah, thank you uh, for that. I would also uh like to make a a comment on what I hear uh from uh the community that I represent which is Ward 9 and in particular dog parks. It tends to be a constant um conversation. I think I've heard it for many many many years and I would like to have a better understanding on what that process for dark dog parks looks like going forward. I know we have approved one and maybe another but what is what are we doing with the one that we're approving and what are we doing with the one that we are expecting just that process and what that looks like. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith and just to clarify uh counselor did you want more information on the tier one versus tier 2 or just the overall I think overall and then I'll have a follow-up question as well. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. I could start and we also have our park staff here to support us. So, um, as you know, this was one of our new provision targets we've set. So what we've done is looked at and we know um sometimes uh dog parks are very large require a large amount of land and have to be in specific areas of the city and not in residential areas for a variety of reasons. So we are exploring what other municipalities are doing when we think of dog off leash areas. What is the size of that? How do they best fit into the available land and the uh geographics we're looking at? what are opportunities as others have done to mix dog parks or off leash areas with other amenities. So our report right now when we set our provision targets for that uh sets at two up to two dog parks over the next period 2028 to 2042. So as mentioned to councelor Pribble when we now our next step once this is approved we will begin laying out the costing of this and the recommendations uh over the next uh at minimum two multi-year budgets. So at that time then we will look at uh the location of where these areas will be what these areas will look like if we have land if we need to purchase land for these and then the costing of that and what are the implications depending on uh the cost recovery methods. Councelor Hopkins. >> Thank you for that. And through you, Madam Chair, just to make sure that So, we've got two main budgets. Will we be looking at one dog park for the 2028 budget or how I'm still trying to have a better idea which way to go with trying to explain it to to residents who uh are interested in new dog parks. >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. >> Yeah, thank you. Um uh we have not uh requested funding yet uh for the implementation of the dog park uh that has been approved in the south southwest portion of the city. Uh we will do that as soon as we acquire land. Um and I think that's important. Uh and what I would say in terms of going forward from 28 to 2042, uh dog parks will now be included uh in the DC background study uh as DC eligible uh recovery mechanisms. uh when they have not been submitted previously. Uh and so I think that helps with the funding going forward. Uh but we will come forward at the appropriate time for the already approved dog park once we are able to acquire a suitable piece of land in that geographic area of the city. Thank you >> counselor. >> Uh thank you for that. So we need the land first before we start going through the DC process and um the process going forward. Okay. Uh just a a a last comment on pickle balls. Really pleased to see uh them there as well as tennis courts as well and lots of um I think there's a lot of demand in our city with a growing city. These uh social infrastructure projects become even more important and uh I I'm hoping that we're able to accommodate as much as we can uh in this master plan. Thank you. >> Thank you. Have councelor Ferrer next. Thank you, chair. Um, and, um, thanks to the questions that I heard, uh, before from councelor Purbble and councelor Hopkins. Uh, they covered a lot of the things that I wanted to speak to, but I'm going to just follow up on some of that. Uh, but before I do, I just wanted to say I I appreciate the update. Um, you know, I think the the main goal of like, you know, connecting people to parks and community spaces and all around nature where you can is definitely something that we need to do, especially when it comes to uh the fact that we're trying to build more housing. people need those enjoyable spaces uh where they can to connect um with either its parks, be healthy, active living and all that. So, I appreciate that. Um I do wanted to I did want to kind of go back on the net ball conversation. So, I understand that uh for something like this and I see that in this update we're talking about uh making sure that we have equitable approaches uh for everyone in the community. So, I I'm kind of basing my questions around that that area. Um, and I understand that you need to demonstrate a demand before we would build some type of I guess net ball structure. Um, but when I was looking online of what netball really is, I see that ultimately you could potentially just build like a pole with a net and put it somewhere and that's pretty minimal infrastructure. So, I just wanted to know is there like a threshold of demonstrated demand for um um minimal kind of infrastructure areas cuz we're not talking about like a massive field or um a new like pad for something. This could be potentially put um somewhere um just a net and and the pole somewhere. So, I just wanted to know if we were to say to uh the delegate um Miss Butterfield, if she were to reach out to her community and say reach out to the get involved site and let us know uh so you can kind of demonstrate that demand. Is there a threshold there considering that um the infrastructure here would be maybe minimal? >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. >> Thank you. Uh thank you through the chair. Uh a great question. um uh there there isn't necessarily a numerical threshold. Uh what I would say is uh demonstrated demand will be on local participation numbers uh as an example. Uh we've heard the word uh cricket. There's about 1,700 uh participants in the city uh as an example. So uh while we don't have a threshold, there certainly is indicators. uh number of organized associations, number of organized clubs affiliated with provincial and national sport organizations, uh those type of indicators. Uh so there isn't an exact number. Uh but uh what I would say to you is um there is a lot of additional facilities and amenities required in Parkland. Uh and I think that sometimes you do have to make decisions for tradeoff. Uh and I think that's why demonstrated demand is our driver. Thank you very much, >> counselor. >> Okay. Thanks for that. Um so thanks uh Miss Butterfield for the delegation. Very well eloquently put. Um so it would it would be safe to say to uh Miss Butterfield, reach out to your community, submit on get involved to the parks and wreck master plan and just let let show us um the demonstrated engagement there. Is that that would be the correct uh direction for her? >> I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And I understand Miss Butterfeld has reached out to Mr. McGonicle and the team and we will make sure we have that connection. And as I mentioned, another great opportunity we often do is in tri sports in our recreation program. So I I will connect in Miss Pollock too because this is an opportunity for us to look at some of those experts in the community that participate in sports like this and bring it into our facilities, understand what's needed and and start demonstrating that need and the potential interest in activities too. So there's that's another way we can start uh bringing it into our community and exploring what that looks like. >> Counselor. >> Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. Okay. My next um area is for um the submission from Midtown. So like I understand in different areas, especially areas that have already been intensified, um there may be limited space for green space. There may be potential other solutions uh that could be looked at. So, I just wanted to kind of ask um and I already I know I already reached out to staff on this one. I just want to put on the record of what other potential solutions there could be or um or anything that you might be able to speak to on with uh Midtown's uh submission. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. and through the chair. Um, in talking to uh the parks team, we understand that uh this area there's a documented need for additional parkland to achieve the service level standards we have around park and park uh amenities and park facilities in our city. Um, as you know, the need increases as density increases, especially within Ward 13. So, many strategies are being implemented to address this. We're looking at the potentially the proactive acquisition of lands where feasible um new park development supporting growth like in the old Victoria hospital lands intensification of existing parkland potentially in an existing park and perhaps exploring partnership with uh local schools in the area who have green space. So we will continue to look at that assess what can be completed and um we will look at uh future development with the tools we have available is whether it's parkland acquisition acquisition cash and loo um or how we can to increase parkland in spaces that are increasing in density but are also very dense and built up. >> Thank you councelor Pereira. >> Okay thank you for that and through you chair. Um yes, Midtown is a community that is looking to get more face toface. They're one of the more um active engaged communities that are really looking to get people together and I obviously believe as as I as is indicated in the report that you know physical spaces like that is really where people can come together and actually do that type of connection. Um so I I do know that they're limited as well just because it's a very urbanized area and spaces are limited. So that's why I wanted to ask the question just to see if we could have anything alternative to that. So, I know that staff have indicated to me over email and just now that they are you are going to be looking into that, but I would ask, you know, um Midtown is a community that that needs that space, whatever it may look like. So, I'll look forward to seeing what we come up with in the future. Uh those are all my questions. Again, thank you for the update. Great report. I like what you're doing. So, you're going to see my full support here. >> Thank you. Looking to other me members of committee before I go to visiting counselors. I have councelor or sorry deputy mayor Lewis next please. >> Thank you madam chair and and through you uh first I want to say there's lots of good things uh in this report that are very exciting uh you know when I look at um and particularly when I look into the appendixes more uh when we are talking about uh doing the inventory I mean that's something that I know from conversations with Mr. from we really do need to get that inventory updated first so we have a good handle on what we actually have in the system before moving ahead with uh a lot of changes uh or updates uh first we need to have a firm grasp on what's there um the the parkland needs and setting the new citywide target of 1.8 8 hectares uh per 10,00 people. Uh I think that that's also something that's that's much needed. Um and also applaud the uh parkland distribution. Uh I I might have suggested perhaps a kilometer rather than 800 meters, but I'm not going to get into the weeds on that. Uh I think the idea of having, you know, park within a 10 to 15 minute walk uh for 94% of the population is a good target for us to have. Uh and I also like the idea of updating the parkland dedication bylaw. Uh I I think uh as we heard Miss Smith just reference uh some cashinl contributions sometimes I think we need to make sure that we're uh handling that cashinl in a responsible way so that it's very specifically for for parks and and that might include dividing it up between park needs immediate and and even land acquisition. But that's a conversation I think for uh us to have at a future date. I but I I do want to highlight that I think that's a really good step. And I also like the um in the equity inclusion uh regularly engaging with youth uh because let's be honest, they're the ones who are our heaviest park users. We have park users of all ages, but our parks are especially important to uh young people as a space to get out, be with their friends, be physically active, have that social interaction, have some independence. Uh and so I think that that's really important that we continue to have those uh youth conversations moving ahead. Um, cricket fields, I know Mr. McGonogo mentioned it and glad to see developing a second regulation cricket pitch is in the appendixes. Um, rectangular sports fields is also in there. Uh, you know, we heard today about netball, but I in the last uh, two weeks have had multiple conversations about the need for football. Uh, and of course, I think most of us are aware that soccer fields are are an in demand need as well. Um, so, uh, also the pickle wall or the basketball and multi-use pads, uh, new indoor outdoor basketball courts. Uh, I applaud that. Um, I would just say that if we're looking for multi-use to make it outdoor ice rinks in the winter, which I strongly applaud, uh, that we also make sure that we have the proper uh, slope and grading on those so that we don't have a a hole at center ice uh, in the winter because we haven't sloped the concrete appropriately. Um, and Mr. will know what I I'm referring to and if he wants to comment on that when I go to questions with staff, he's welcome to do that. Um the new gymnasiums is also important. Uh and I do want to take this opportunity as we talk about the gymnasium strategy in appendix A and the youth of school gymnasiums. I wonder if staff can indicate um where we are with shared usage agreements um with our ability to uh you know I know at Western Fair for example we we get a block of ice that we actually allocate um where are we in terms of conversations with school boards about getting blocks of gymnasium time that we then allocate uh so that we're not sending people in two or three different directions for booking times. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And through the chair, that's a very good question. As we are in the process of just uh finalizing with the Temps Valley District School Board our joint use agreement um and we are now uh working with the Catholic London District Catholic School Board with that with our hopes of bringing those back by the end of the year by the beginning of uh next year earliest. So as you probably recollect these are very old agreements. Um they've had to be modernized. uh we are looking it may be as to what you asked uh a multi-stage uh process to get to where uh you have suggested we want to be but um I think this is a very good step towards that and we are currently working with them both to get those agreements in front of you uh either by year end or or in Q1 of 2027. Deputy Mayor Lewis >> and and as a followup to that, are uh co-builds for new schools also part of that discussion? I mean, if we can co-build whether it's soccer or whether it's an indoor pool or an arena or whatever, if we can colllocate community facilities alongside of schools, uh that seems to me to be a good cost efficiency way to approach things, especially from a land acquisition point of view. So, I'm wondering if staff can indicate if co-uilds are part of that discussion. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And 100% yes. I think you saw that when we came forward with our agreement recently with the downtown YMCA to leverage some unused time of the swimming pool in in their downtown location. Um, we're seeing that with our partnership at Western Fair and 100% we're seeing that as we explore schools. We're looking at our turf, our turfed fields, our lit turf fields, and looking at growing those with our schools and our partnerships. That's where we want to go. How can we leverage what others are building, the infrastructure they have so we can share that infrastructure that then maximizes use to the community. >> Deputy Mayor Lewis. And just finally, um, we have kind of piloted, and I put that in soft air quotes, um, uh, lighting pickle ball courts at East Lions Community Center, uh, this summer. And I thank staff for the work that they put into that when I approached them about it. It has been a roaring success to say the least. Um, people are are playing right until the lights go off at 11:00 pretty much every night of the week. uh that has expanded the hours of use even in the summer by a couple of hours, but as the days start to get shorter, it's going to expand the hours of use even further. Uh I've already got folks asking, can we do the same thing with the tennis courts uh at East Lions? Um can we do the same thing at the new pickle ball courts we just put in at Kuanas Park? The opportunity to have extended hours of play on outdoor uh amenities. uh because people do have work and and school obligations and other things and and so evenings are often the highest demand hours um that are indoor and are outdoor. So I'm just wondering if staff are in their um review of our capacity um >> Deputy Mayor Lewis that's your time. >> Sure. So just are they looking at lighting to address some of our capacity issues? >> Okay, lighting. Got it. I'll go to uh Miss Smith. Go ahead. >> Thank you. And through the chair I can start and turn it over to Mr. Sorry about me. But yes, I was just at East Lions Parks recently and it was getting near dusk and it was packed and and that's what we want to see. We want to make sure they're in appropriate areas where extended play and loud play is appropriate. There are some that may not be appropriate due to the closeness of uh residential areas. But as we go to look at additional fil facilities and we grow, part of our strategies are exactly that. How can we maximize the time, maximize the usage not just during the day but the extent to the number of months too and uh that includes same thing with uh shade strategies we heard loud and clear from community when we build playgrounds and other things. How can we maximize that use as summers get hotter and hotter and and the sun gets hotter on on young kids and families. So, those are part of the strategies we'll be looking at as we build new and refurbish old. >> Thank you. Um, I know of counselor Mallister on the list. Um, if you can just hold them, I'm going to do my series of questions and then if you don't mind go to you just to get members of the committee on first. Thank you. Uh, I'll go to councelor Prible >> and I have the chair and I'm and I'm recognizing councelor Ramen. >> Uh, thank you and through you. Oh, sorry. Council member Mallister, do you want to go first? >> Okay. Sorry, I just didn't want to take up your time if you had to go. Um, thank you. And through you. So, uh, I want to thank staff for the report. Um, I appreciate these updates. Um, and I find them very helpful. They're, uh, good when I'm speaking with community about what is, uh, what is planned and and coming up. But um one of the challenges I find with uh representing newer community is that um even though we have these targets uh the amenities that are to come are still um in a discussion phase and it doesn't feel like much changes over time. So, uh, it's great to see that we have outlined a new, uh, Northwest community center, that we've again identified the southeast, that we're talking through all of the possibilities of what could be, but as we've been engaging in the parks and wreck master plan, do we anticipate that when a new community center comes that we will engage in a get involved or conversation about what people will want in that community center or will we take what's in here as the guiding document for what would go into that center >> and going to the staff for their feedback. >> Thank you. And through the chair, I can start at that. And I think for example, what's been identified uh in the southeast? I think uh you're right, it was a number of years ago. Are the priorities still the same? Are the needs still the same in the amenities that are there? Uh you raise a very good question. They may or may not be same within the Northwest. We knew we've we know we've set our provision targets. So I think that's a very strong base to follow on, but some of those provision targets has been updated. Some of those numbers have stayed the same or actually some of those provision targets have decreased. So it behooves us to then take a look at when we especially when we build larger infrastructure like community centers, is this still the need of the community knowing that these aren't neighborhood based but available for the dis or the the broader areas. So I think we have to look at these from both sides. What's new and emerging? What are our provision targets saying and what are we short of and we know that we need and then again what are those opportunities for partnerships that allow us to expand on those and then there's opportunities too to engage the community because it has been a while in some of those builds on on uh broader community on what we are missing. But the provision targets and our needs set the foundation for because we need to do that in order to build this into our DC background study into the future budget to understand what is the um infrastructure that we're be building in those centers and then at the end of the day what can we afford? >> Thank you counselor. >> Thank you. Um, one of the things I'm trying to understand is, okay, if let's say hypothetically we're looking to build a a new, well, not hypothetically, we are going to build a new community center in the Northwest. uh our provision target says that we have ice per x amount I can't remember right now 20,000 whatever the number is ice per the provision target but we've got ice in many other places in the city but the majority of people from the northwest are going across town to get to ICE how do we address that within provision targets >> and going back to the staff Uh thank you and and through the presiding officer. Um arenas can be a complicated geographic tool. Uh the reality is is we have 22 pads across 11 facilities and we have enough ice uh to satisfy the demand that exists. And so it becomes difficult to think about building a new rink uh when you have enough ice pads uh to fulfill the demand. Uh the other thing I would just note is the change in the hockey system itself. Uh there is no longer any geographical boundaries on participation in a city. Uh so in all reality you already have lots of people from the north who are heading to other associations. Uh West London uh as an example uh the Bandits uh Junior Knights uh you name it. Uh I think that no borders uh which is the first year this year uh for uh hockey uh in the province. Um I think it is good for us. you will see a very detailed recommendation related to future ice pad studies. Um, and I think that's really important uh before we start making uh decisions based on geographical convenience, noting how important that is to people. >> Thank you, councelor. >> Thank you. Um, that's helpful. Um, with regards to the 94% within the the park coverage, um, your proximity to a park, um, when we talk about that, how do we determine or what do we consider around recreational play in that space, structures? Um, what do we consider around gathering spaces? Could this in some cases just be that we've dedicated lands but those lands are not really for um recreational purposes. >> Going back to the staff >> sorry can you please repeat the question? didn't quite >> sure. I guess what I'm trying to understand is when we have recreational when we when we talk about our parks target and we talk about 94% of people living within proximity to a park. I have a number of community spaces where people do not feel like they are connected to a recreational play structure or gathering space but they meet the definition of a parkland. >> Thank you through the chair. Um there are there is parkland in the city like parks open space lands for example that are more set aside for natural heritage protection. Um so that's where some of that discrepancy occurs. There are if you look at the parks rec master plan there's a map in there that shows distribution for neighborhood parks and there are more gaps between those parks across the city. the city, especially in growth areas, as opportunities arise through ongoing development and for example in the Northwest, we will do our very best to close those gaps that exist between parks and where they where that's not possible. Um, parkland acquisition may be an opportunity and as discussed earlier, partnerships with with um school boards, for example, to close that infrastructure gap. Thank you, councelor. >> Thank you. Um, appreciate that. Um, so as we continue to move forward and look at what's coming in the future, uh, again, we set some new provision targets. I'm just wondering how we arrived at these numbers. I'm happy to see that we've got provision targets for newer sports, but how do we come up with those targets? This is it just best practices across municipalities. Um if I can just get a little bit more detail >> and going back to the staff. >> Thank you. And and through the presiding officer um uh provision targets uh can be based on a combination of existing service levels plus uh demonstrated demand. Uh so as an example um uh I'll just use pickle ball courts uh did not have a provision target. It was an emerging activity. Uh we're currently building pickle ball uh courts based on reality uh of our current against our current population of about uh just over 15,000 people. Uh and so the reality is is you pick a 6,000 uh people target because uh you're trying to recognize the demonstrated demand that exists above and beyond your existing inventory and supply available to the community. So um it's much more scientific and and methodological than that. Uh but that's the simplistic uh version of it. Thank you. >> Thank you counselor. >> Thank you. And through you I think it would be helpful also to understand what parks uh we're considering for rehabilitation or parks that we feel need some refurbishment. So um I'm wondering if maybe on the tennis item and uh and our court usage and court availability etc. what we're looking if you can speak to at all some of the the work we're doing to look at rehabilitating courts >> going to the staff for their feedback. >> Uh thank you and through the presiding officer. Um the last five or six years has represented major investments uh into court redevelopment and resurfacing. Um I I apologize I don't have that exact list in front of me but uh certainly seven or eight locations uh that have been done over the past four or five years given the rise in pickle ball. Uh and so certainly uh in order to reach our provision targets it may not be uh exactly just new uh locations. It may be underutilized green space in an existing property. It may be an old court that needs to be resurfaced and redone that we choose to change based on geographic gaps that exist in that inventory distribution. Uh so uh so we will continue uh both the development of new courts uh in new park developments and the addition of courts uh based on the provision targets in any uh locations that are being redeveloped. I hope that answers your question council. Thank you. >> Thank you. I'm going to squeeze in my comment. The ones that I saw in the north the resurface of them absolutely fantastic. Go ahead council. >> Thank you. They are beautiful. Um just a final comment uh when we move to the stage where we're ready to talk about what will be in a new Northwest um community center. I know there's great interest from the community to express what kinds of needs have arisen since the time when we first started talking about this and engage in a really wholesome dialogue uh with the community on that. So thank you and I welcome that opportunity. I believe there was a comment. No more questions. Correct. Returning your chair and council Mallister is next on the speakers list. >> Thank you. I'll go to councelor Mallister. >> Uh thank you and through you. Um appreciate this report. Um parks and wrecks. Uh I've had a lot of uh dealings with the department over the years and you guys have done a great job in terms of uh things in my area. So I do want to start by saying um I really do appreciate the refurbishment of neighborhood amenities. um they really are important in my part of the city and I just have a question in terms of I actually have a few questions but I'll I'll break them into different sections here but um with that in mind in terms of the refurbishment I do get a lot of questions in terms of uh condition and age of the buildings um and whether have we changed our targets in terms of how long um obviously you know conditions there's a number of factors that impact that but um just if there's any changes in terms of when we would renovate spaces based on the age of them Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonogal or Miss Smith. Mr. McGonagal. >> Uh thank you and through the chair. Uh all of our parks and recreation amenities are are in uh the capital asset management plan uh in our CAM plan. Uh that includes our facility condition index or our FCIS. Um uh our life cycle uh renewal investment rates uh have been uh really high uh over the last few years. you certainly will see a major increase in the uh facility condition index uh based on some of the refurbishment work that we have done. Uh and so um uh we have not necessarily changed the age or condition. I think what we more likely have done at gotten better at our data and our systems uh in making our investments fire at more appropriate times. And so and that's a large thanks to our finance and our corporate asset management teams. And so, um, I think from our perspective, we're a a lucky beneficial recipient, uh, of that expertise. Uh, and it really does help us in keeping our facilities, uh, uh, in the best condition, uh, possible. And there also is a reality on the pace of investment in life cycle renewal that does have an impact on the tax base as well. Thank you, >> councelor. >> I think Miss Smith wants to add something. Go ahead. >> Thank you. Go ahead, Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And through the chair, just quickly, we also continue to look for provincial and federal funding to leverage such as we're doing at Silverwoods. We know there's an uh call for proposals for capital uh open right now with the provincial government for sport and recreation. So, we continue to look at that and leverage our infrastructural renewal. It's not always about building new, but it's improving, enhancing, in increasing the use of some of our elderly facilities, too. So we continue to look proincially and federally to uh partner on those uh capital projects. >> Counselor. >> Uh thank you. Uh and through you uh another question in terms of uh I have a number of um schools that have the afterchool programs. Um Glen Karen and Crouch do a number of these as well. And considering I'll use Hamilton Road as an example. Um, one of these schools would follow in council fra's area, but Aberdine, Trafoger, uh, Eling, these are all very old schools. Uh, they don't necessarily have those recreational facilities, but and the resource centers do a number of programs. Uh, and just ensuring that when we look at the demographics, it's not solely on population, but there is a demand, especially with the schools in terms of being able to provide those programs. So, as we build out these master plans, just ensuring that we have those partnerships in place to to ensure that there's appropriate afterchool programming and spaces available. So if staff just want to comment on that. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And through the chair. Uh I totally agree and we do work on that very closely through our joint use agreements with the school boards. We regularly meet and have conversations about them and our needs. We work also with our colleagues in Mr. Dickens area in early years and programming and often provide access to our space for a very uh reduced uh reduced rate. And on top of that, you're right, through our city learning community grants program, we also fund a number of those activities uh for neighborhood resource centers to access after school programming either at our facilities or the local schools. >> Council Mallister, >> uh thank you and through you. And also just wondering if we anticipate any changes to uh uh play it your way or any subsidized programs whether as the city grows whether we need to make adjustments for those programs. >> Thank you. yoga, Miss Smith. >> Thank you through your chair. Another very good question and as part of our user fee review that we are doing for the for um that we will bring forward next year, we are also doing a comprehensive review of our play your way subsidy program. It is overextended which is great. Um so it's time to do a comprehensive review of that program and make sure it's reaching the targets and what we want that program to do. We are we are also looking at our waving or reducing our fees to our community centers and facilities that so many not for-profit and local groups understand. So that is all part of our comprehensive review for the next multi-year budget. >> Council Mallister, >> thank you. Um and through you appreciate those answers. Uh I'm also wondering in terms of I think this maybe impacts some wards more than others but u when it comes to some of the inner city areas um and there being a lack of parks or green spaces um do we envision like the acquisition of properties? I know it was kind of discussed a little bit um with the plan but um I mean even Wartley would be a good example um old village we we essentially had to acquire a former school land to to build a park. Uh, and so I'm just curious in terms of some of those more dense areas if we envision having to acquire property u when it becomes available for parkland. >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. McGonagal. >> Thank you through the chair. Yes, you're correct. Some locations in the city does does require proactive land acquisition where that's feasible. We work closely with our realy realy division at the city and they do have an active list where there are existing gaps where we're trying to close those gaps and acquire key parcels of land for future park development. >> Thank you. I'll go to council. >> Uh thank you. Appreciate that. I I know it was probably on everyone's radar, but uh I think it's important uh you know to keep our eyes open for for those opportunities uh when they become available. Uh I do also get a number of questions in terms of uh any sort of expansion on public washrooms or covered spaces in parks. It's one that comes up a lot and I just wondering again long-term planning if we have uh plans for that. >> I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you and through your chair. Yes, that was one of the priorities uh we heard loud and clear when we went through our engagement with this and it is one of our strategies that we will be working on. Thank you. I'll go to Council Mallister. Uh >> thank you. And through you. I do just have one last question. It kind of speaks to the one I was I was speaking of um before that last one, but uh in terms of uh repurposing old versus building new. Uh the capital costs are exorbitant on new facilities. Understand we have those targets that we need to reach. Um, but I am wondering in terms of those trade-offs, obviously we'd have service agreements, but are are we looking at acquiring properties that have pre-existing buildings and uh opportunities in that realm? Because uh I think there's a few that have come up. Uh I get asked a lot in terms of the the why they closed in my area. Obviously, we looked at it. there wasn't a recreational need. But um I think there are other opportunities like that that could appear in the future and just um how we would deal with that considering the cost of building new versus perhaps repurposing. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Smith. >> Thank you. And through your chair, yes, as a short answer, that's a very good question and we have looked at that. For us, it also depends recently. We work very closely as Mr. Brew mentioned with our realy services to look at uh whether it's partnerships or whether it's leveraging what's existing. Sometimes we looked is it leasing space long-term lease what is the best when we look at an area and and uh when we want to build it all depends too on the condition of the facility the ability when you think of it if it's a facility we need to build a swimming pool in that is very limiting on a current or existing building. But it also looks at the land and what does the land look like? Is it going to be a large investment to rehabilitate uh the property or not? So there are many things that we look at with our colleagues in realy to understand what is this sales cost versus the actual cost to be able to construct on that property. >> Um and through you thank you appreciate it. Uh really enjoyed the report. Uh, I know there's a lot of work to be done in this area, but in terms of what I've seen to date, I've been very impressed and uh, thankful. Um, my people very much appreciate it. Um, their facilities might be a bit old, but they're they're getting uh, the necessary investments to to come back to life. So, very much appreciate it, and I look forward to the future on this. Thanks. >> Thank you. Looking for other speakers. >> Okay, seeing none on this item, we will open the vote. Closing the vote. The motion carries 5 to zero. Thank you to staff for all the answers on that particular item. I know that was a lot back and forth. Uh we will move on to our next item from the deferred matters uh list and that is the item 2.3. I shouldn't say deferred matter additional business, sorry. Uh that's the enhanced response to public safety risk and dogs. I was asked to pull this item. Uh looking for a mover in seconder on this. Okay. I have councelor Hopkins, councelor Ferrer, and looking for speakers on this item. >> Councelor Traso. >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you very much first for putting this on the agenda, bringing this forward and for the for the staff report. I want to um I I want to say I do appreciate the detail in the staff report, but I do think that there are a few things that are missing and I don't I don't think they necessarily mean rejecting the staff report or making a lot of amendments. These are things that I'm going to ask if they can be included in in an updated report. Um there is there is one amendment that I'd like to see and I don't know if somebody else is going to make it or whether I should just make it now. And that is when it says um in three with the city's contracted animal service provider London Animal Care Center. And I would like to add in there and the environmental stewardship and action community advisory committee ESAC and the Humane Society. And the reason I would like that explicitly in the motion is I just want to make sure that when the staff uh report comes back that they're consulting with as as many interested stakeholders as possible. And I understand that since the um animal welfare advisory committee was disbanded that function has been given over to the uh committee that I just mentioned. So I would like them to take a look at it. There is a lot of expertise in this community regarding dog behavior and um the difference between different breeds and the difference between dogs of different ages and how they behave when they're taking >> counselor. You've put an amendment on the floor. Can I just look for a second before it's okay? >> We are also just drafting the language, so I just want to make sure we get it right. Okay, counselor, it has the wording is in ecribe for you. Um, so you can view it and you have a seconder and councelor Hopkins on the amendment language. Thank you. We changed it once. We'll change it again. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Uh we have mover and secondary. You wanted to speak to your amendment. Go ahead. >> Maybe I'll save my comments for the main motion so I can address everything all at once. >> Sure. Looking for other speakers on the amendment. Councelor Hopkins. >> Yeah, I didn't have a problem second. And maybe a question for you, Madam Chair, to staff would be uh my understanding is that there's going to be no public consultation. So having consultation with community members and an advisory group, I don't see that being a problem, but I just want to confirm that with staff. >> Thank you. A miss >> through the chair. Thank you. So we have had an informal public con consultation. We did consult with staff from the humane society as well as uh the individual who was responsible for the change.org position petition, pardon me. Uh but we will certainly have the ability to go back to issac as well to conduct consult consultation with them. >> Councelor Hopkins >> and and the humane society as well. Is is there a concern there? >> Miss Feffer. through the chair. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? >> She was just asking with the Humane Society as well if there's going to be additional consultation >> through the chair. Yes, we will have a formal PPM once the bylaw the proposed by draft bylaw is established for um enhanced public participation as well. >> Councelor Hopkins. >> Good to know. Thank you >> on the amendment. Councelor Ferrer. >> Uh thank you chair through you. Um, so just looking at this, um, it's looking like we're going to get a report back for to CAPS Q2 2027. So with adding these two extra bodies to consult with, do you see any um timing issues? I would assume none, but uh, I just wanted to to get your take on that, >> Miss Feffer. >> Through the chair, that timeline is appropriate for the work that needs to be done still. >> Council Ferrer. >> Okay, thank you for that. Okay. Anyone else on the amendment? Seeing no other speakers, I will open the vote. Closing the vote. The motion carries 5 to zero. Uh, okay. And just looking at the main motion as amended is mover and second are okay to stay on the motion. Thank you councelor Hopkins. Okay, thank you. And on the main motion as amended looking for speakers. Okay, I'll go to councelors. >> Yes. Um a few a few questions and then and then a um a comment. How is the issue of whether the dog is acting in self-defense determined by um the person observing the situation? What level of expertise would they need to conduct that? Anyway, that's that's the first question. >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Fev. >> Thank you. and through the chair. So, that's a question probably best put to the service provider, the individuals responsible for conducting the dog bite investigation. They do have specific training that they receive and we are looking with this enhancement to the bylaw at potentially introducing a scale that will be um easier to apply to specific circumstances. each incident is uh unique and certainly needs to be um considered that way. >> Thank you, Councelor Tossup. >> My other question may be more of a legal technical question and that is um I know in the Toronto system there is an appeal um built into the administrative process and I think just for purposes of keeping the um bylaw tidy and defensible. It would be important to do that. I don't think it's necessary for me to offer an amendment to put that in. That is something that staff will internally um look at, >> Miss Bever >> through the chair. That's correct. >> And my my final my final um concern is is one of cost. So since since we are not dealing with an in-house department, but we're dealing with a private sector vendor who has contracted with us for services under a um under a private contract, um it it it will likely be the case, if I understand the report, that any additional services that the private sector vendor is providing will have to be renegotiated in terms of uh a cost schedule. Is is that right? >> Thank you. I'll go to Miss Feffer >> through the chair. That is also correct. >> Okay. Um and if if if I understand the timing of the current contract that we have with the private sector vendor that is going to be up for renewal and subject to um uh a a process sometime next year. So, I guess my question is if that's true, is that something and I I don't want to put an amendment on the table now, but just thinking ahead, is that something that should be uh considered as part of the request for proposal? >> Thank you. I'll go to Mr. Mathers or Miss Beefer on just providing a verbal answer. >> Yep. Through your wor through the chair. Uh absolutely. That is why I think this is a really great timing to be able to bring forward these changes because if we're entering into a new contract situation and an RFP process, it's it would be nice to have very clear um requirements for that new contract. So way we want to time these changes is bring forward to council so that we can reflect anything within that RFP RFQ process. >> Okay. Well, that that's really good to hear. So I just I just want to make a general comment. I've been observing the um dangerous dog uh dog bite regime that we've had here for oh my um a long time over you know getting on 20 years now and um there have been a number of changes. These used to come uh the muzzling orders used to come to uh caps subject to a um review. It was determined that that was too burdensome and there needed to be another way of doing it. There's al there's also have been over the years somewhat of a change in philosophy in terms of how um the civic administration deals with animal welfare uh issues. Um Jay Stanford always used to talk about back in many many years ago uh he used to talk about how we're moving from an animal control uh system to an animal welfare um system. And over the years many many changes were put into effect. I think uh all all for all for the good. I just want to make sure that when we get this report back and this this most certainly is a public safety issue and there are a lot of concerns from the public about public safety here. But this is also an animal welfare issue. And I think that there are a lot of uh uh people in London who would consider themselves to be advocates for uh not just generally animal welfare, but in particular for the welfare of um dogs. And I know that when we go when we go to have a public participation meeting, there's going to be a lot of concern coming from members of the public that this public safety aspect is balanced is properly balanced with the animal welfare aspect. So this is this is why I think it's important to also look at things from the perspective of the animal, a sentient a sentient being. And we have to be sensitive to the fact that in many situations we have people who are um adopting uh bringing into their homes uh animals who have had difficult pests in terms of abuse being transported uh long distance often from the southern United States uh from from breeders. And it's it's often the case that in the in the course of uh taking care of uh the the newcomer animals that um their behavior starts to improve and there are often situations where there are behavior problems at the beginning that with the proper training and education get worked out uh especially in the case of puppies. So, I guess I guess I want to think about the juvenile justice system a little bit and uh what it what it means to get a lifetime uh what it means to get a lifetime uh muzzle muzzle order. Um, and I'm not again I'm not making a proposal now because I don't know what the right answer is, but I hope that in coming back with this information in consultation with a variety of experts. We look we look at the fact that animal behavior can change especially if it's in a loving home with proper care. So I just need to be assured that you don't need an amendment for that and that's something you're looking at. >> Thank you. Thank you. I'll go to Miss Feffer. >> Thank you. And through the chair. Yes, that's something that will definitely be contemplated in this review. >> Thank you. I think that was my favorite part of the conversation. Juvenile puppy system. I never thought about that before. Uh looking for other speakers on this item. Okay. Oh, councelor Hopkins, go ahead. >> Yeah, thank you. um through you maybe have a quick question on the recommendation which is uh BI the uh proposed implementation strategy that is going to come back to us. Would there be um would that be would part of the strategy be about the education component to the dog owner or where is that looked at or how important is that as we um look into enhancing our response to dangerous dogs? >> Thank you. Ag. >> Thank you. and through the chair. I'd just like to introduce Cam Brown, the policy analyst who conducted the research and and wrote the draft report. He can answer the question for you, council. >> Thank you. Go ahead. >> Thank you. And through the chair. So, yeah, education um particularly in the proposed setup we have. So, a dangerous act occurs and then if the dangerous act is determined to not be extremely severe and requiring the new version of the muzzle order, um a written warning and educational materials along with that would be provided. Um so that's sort of the strategy we want to use to sort of get at these incidents early on and then provide them with education um before it progresses. >> Councelor Hopkins, >> I like it. I'll be supporting the recommendation. Thank you. >> Thank you. Any other speakers on this item? Okay, seeing none, we will councelor Ferrer, go ahead. >> Thank Thank you, chair. I know uh we got to finish this, so I'm just going to quickly make some remarks here. Um I glad thank you to council for supporting uh the work up to this point. Thank you to staff and for the report back. I thought I thought it was really informative. Um, I really appreciate counselor Hopkins question regarding the education piece and the owner piece because, you know, a bad dog could maybe indicate a bad owner. Um, and that's really what it's about. Like if you have uh situations where a dog may be dangerous or lashing out, um the education piece and what's going on at home and just correcting those actions as consistently and thoroughly as possible is really what you need to do to to mitigate and and move away from that type of behavior into good behavior. I would say that behavior can be changed at any dog, any age. Um it just it matters. It depends on the consistency of what uh type of environment and how the owner is responding uh to those to those behaviors. So, I just wanted to kind of just focus on that part uh when it comes to how we uh follow up with the education piece. Um, and just if you could give me a little bit more information beyond what was in the report of how are we going to ensure uh beyond the first piece of education or the pamphlets or whatever we're going to be sending uh that the owner is following through uh with with those um with that information. >> Thank you >> through the chair. So we anticipate that that would be part of the ongoing compliance um conducted by the uh animal services contractor. They would be responsible for ensuring compliance with any orders that are issued and and certainly following through with any mandatory education that's required as part of uh a compliance initiative. >> Council for >> Okay. Thank you. So compliance orders. So that's amps and education to make sure the education is followed through. there's amps that are backing that up on the onus on the owner and I think that's really where we got to focus on uh moving forward. So, um I I appreciate this. Um I'm looking forward to the bylaw when it comes back. Um and I and I hope to see that information in there, too, cuz I think that's where the focus should be. So, thank you. >> Thank you. Final call for speakers. Seeing none, we will open the vote. closing the vote. The motion carries 5 to zero. Thank you. This takes us to item number six, adjournment. Looking for a mover. Councelor Ferrer. Councelor Hopkins. Thank you. All in favor by hand. Closing the vote. The motion carries. The journ. >> Thanks everyone. Have a great rest of your day.