Sound check 1 2 3. Sound check 1 2 3. Hello and welcome to the downtown subcommittee for Thursday, June 11th. I'm your chair, war I counselor Cameron Crretch, and joining us today in council chambers, uh, vice chair Susie Braithweight, member Emily Walsh, member Karen Row, member Megan Edmmonds, member Andrea Hzerafa, and member Ryan Moran joining us online, member Elizabeth Wakeford, and I see you there, councelor Wilson, Ward One, and we have non voting members Dino Mazik and AnuTo, and I believe Sonia is also depos online. We have a quorum for our meeting. So, I'm going to call it to order at this time and get to our first item of business, which is the approval of the agenda. Can I have a mover and second to approve the agenda for today? Moved by Vice Chair Braithweight, seconded by member Row. Any questions, amendments, comments, or feelings about the agenda you want to share at this time? I'm not seeing any. So, all those in favor by show of hands. Thank you. That's everybody. On to declarations of conflicts of interest. Does anybody have a conflict of interest they want to declare for today's meeting? Only applies to voting members. Nope. Okay. On to the adoption of the minutes of our previous meeting. Move and second to adopt the previous meeting's minutes from April 9th. Moved by member Walsh. Seconded by member Wakeford. Any questions, amendments, changes, or housekeeping things you want to note about the minutes of our previous meeting? Seeing none, all those in favor by show of hands. That's everyone. Thank you. That carries. We have two delegations for today's meeting. We'll start those delegations now. Just as a reminder before we begin our delegations, members are reminded that questions of the delegations are for clarification purposes and not for debate. So, you're welcome to ask a delegate a question and they're welcome to answer the question, but if it gets into debate territory, I'll ask you not to do that. For delegates, you have five minutes to complete your delegation. You will, depending on where you are, if you're in the room, you will hear a tone after four minutes, and then you'll have an additional minute to finish up. If you get past 5 minutes, I'll just say, "Uh, could you wrap up?" And then you will. So, we have delegations respecting report PW2609A, which is about urban pest control information for Core Park. And we have one delegation as a for Doris Clayton, who's virtual, and B for Allison Hansen, who's virtual. We'll start with Doris and I'll ask if Doris is online and if you could turn your camera on Doris and you have five minutes whenever you're ready to go. >> Thank you uh councelor coach and I would like to thank the subcommittee for giving me the opportunity to speak today. I will be sharing a personal story of how rodenticides affected my own family. Jasper joined us in January of 2020. He was around 6 months old, a rescued black lab mix from northern Ontario. Whenever I was outside, he was my shadow, laying in the grass or sunning himself while I worked in the garden. A few months after Jasper joined us, I was in the backyard when I noticed what I thought was a green plastic toy. I didn't recognize it. I wondered how it could have got there, given that the entire yard was fully fenced and the gate was always kept locked. On closer inspection, I realized it was not a toy, but it was green dog poop. Confused, I wondered what could have caused it. A quick Google search made my blood run cold because it was rat poison. I immediately called my vet and told him what I had discovered, only to be informed that because of the CO situation, they could not see Jasper and they directed me to another clinic. I rushed him there and had to leave him at the front door as I was unable to enter during the shutdown. What seemed like hours later, I was told that Jasper had been given activated charcoal to clean out his system, had had blood work done as well. He was sent home with a bottle of vitamin K to be administered daily to prevent excessive thinning of his blood. I was instructed not to let him run around in or outside the house and prevent him from jumping on furniture. Not an easy thing to do with a young, active dog, and I had to do this for a month. When Jasper was back home, I started investigating how this could have happened. The yard was completely fenced and always locked. How could rat poison have gotten in? I scoured the yard for evidence and I found a small cellophane package with a few green pellets left in it. It was rat poison, something that can easily be purchased at hardware stores or online. I informed my neighbors, who also had dogs, to check their yards for it. One of them commented that another neighbor had recently put out rat poison, but when confronted, they assured me that what I had found was not what they had used. Although they did say that it had disappeared from their yard, I strongly suspect that an animal such as a raccoon found that poison and brought it into my yard. Having no proof, there would no there were no actions that I could take to hold anyone responsible for what had happened, including payment of the vet bill that ran well over $1,000. When a month had passed, Jasper returned to the vet for additional blood work. I was told he could go back to his active life, but it was forever changed. Even though this happened 6 years ago, not a day has gone by that, but I have not thought about it. Whenever Jasper's in the yard, I fear that he might find something when I'm not looking, even in an instant. No dog should ever have to go through what Jasper did. Nor should any dog owner feel that their beloved pet is not safe in their own backyard. Now, I recognize that it is not in the jurisdiction of the city of Hamilton to prevent homeowners from purchasing and using rodenticides. However, I see this as an opportunity for the city to lead by example. By adopting alternative methods of pest control, the city is providing citizens with options other than rodenticides. I thank the subcommittee for examining these alternatives and I hope that the proposed changes to pest control in Gore Park can be implemented as soon as possible. I thank you again. >> Thanks very much for your delegation. I don't see anyone with questions at this time for you. Thank you for sharing your story with us and you can log off and watch the rest of the meeting on YouTube and we will go on to the next delegation. Thank you very much Clayton. To that end, our next delegate is Allison Hansen, and who will also be joining us virtually. Allison, if you're there, could you turn your camera on? >> Hi there. Can everybody see me and hear me? >> I can see you and hear you clearly. You can start and you've got five minutes. Go ahead. >> Okay, great. Uh, so good afternoon members of the sub downtown subcommittee. My name is Allison Hansen. I'm speaking on behalf of Rodenticidefree Ontario in support of Hamilton based advocates including bird friendly cities Hamilton Burlington and others calling for an end to rodenticide use in Gore Park. We appreciate the subcommittee's recognition that rodenticides are not an effective uh rodent management solution and are pleased to see that public works staff are focused on reducing access to food, water, and shelter that may be sustaining rodent activity in Gore Park. If implemented consistently and maintained over time, these measures should reduce the need for additional interventions. I would however like to call your attention to concerning language uh in staff report PW260009A which describes rodenticides as typical and known to be one of the most effective methods of reducing a rat population. This framing is misleading. Rodenticides may kill individual animals, but they do not address the conditions that allow rodent populations to persist. They also pose serious risks to wildlife, companion animals, children, and the broader environment and should not be normalized as an effective and or acceptable response. Uh for the same reason, we are concerned that the report presents carbon dioxide burrow treatments as the recommended next intervention if additional uh additional budget is approved. Lethal methods, whether poisonbased or not, do not resolve the root causes of rodent activity. If food sources, waste, shelter, and access points remain available, the same conditions will continue to attract rodents over time. We respectfully ask the subcommittee to direct staff to amend the report's characterization of rodenticides and to ensure that future budget request prioritizes prevention first non-toxic measures. As the level of government closest to community health, land use, and urban biodiversity, municipalities have both the author authority and responsibility to prevent avoidable harm where current pest control practices fall short. Hamilton has an opportunity to lead by moving away from reactive lethal approaches and towards strategies that address the conditions driving rodent activity in the first place. We respectfully urge the subcommittee to end the use of rodenticides in Gore Park and com commit to humane prevention-based measures that protect wildlife, companion animals, children, and the ecosystem health. Um, and just before I go, uh, I Doris's story, um, it's it's a little hard for me because I lost a dog to rodenticides. Uh, and this was, uh, a year after my sister's dog was poisoned as well. And this these stories are just not uncommon. They happen all the time. So again, I thank you so much for the opportunity to speak today. >> Thank you very much. I see a question here from councelor Morin Wilson. Go ahead. >> Thank you, Ellison, uh, delegate rather Hansen for participating in our discussion. I'm I'm sorry in case I missed it. I apologize. Um are you able to uh share with us um any urban urban places uh that you think are leading uh on this front? Any best practices out there that we should be looking at? >> Yeah. Um so more locally in Ontario, city of Pickering uh has led the way. Um and what they have done is adopted their own rodenticidefree policy. So they have stopped the use of all rodenticides on the municipal properties and I believe they did this now shave on me here in 2023 um and have maintained the these measures with quite a bit of success. um they are going to be expanding it a little bit further by also um placing um owl boxes in places where there's no rodenticide use and I'd be more than happy to connect you or anybody here um within the city of Hamilton to staff that helped move this forward. >> Thank you for that information. Appreciate it. >> You're welcome. >> Thanks very much again, Delegate Hansen. Just to let you know, this committee and no committee and council, we don't amend language in reports because staff are free to give us their recommendations and and especially if those recommendations do have or any language impacts actual recommendations. Of course, we can vote those recommendations up or down based on what we want to do, but we never amend their language in that manner simply because we want to make sure that they're free and unfettered to give their professional advice as they see fit. But thank you so much for um coming today and for delegating. And otherwise, I don't see questions for you at this time, so you can log off and watch the rest of the meeting on YouTube. Um, and thank you for coming. >> Thank you. >> On that, we'll need some folks to move and second that we receive these two delegations. Moved by member Moran, seconded by member Edmonds, and this is an opportunity usually to ask questions of staff, but we have the report coming up, so we'll do it when the report's on the floor. So, all those in favor of receiving the delegations, by show of hands, that is everyone. Thank you. That carries. We're now on to items for information. Before we get into this section of the agenda, a couple of things we're going to do differently. I'm always mindful if I'm chairing a meeting with counselors or chairing a meeting mixed with counselors and members of the community that not everyone who's doing this on a volunteer basis is doing it from the same perspective. We're doing it every day. And so, we're going to change how we do things a bit to make this a bit more accessible. In every one of these information reports, most of them anyways, there's a pathway forward. Sometimes there's options in those information reports and we're not going to put motions on the floor today because those require some crafting. But at our August meeting, any of the outcomes from information reports that we see there and you want to bring forward a motion, that's a thing to do to talk to staff, reach out to them directly. And if you need touch in, sorry, you need help getting in touch with someone, you can go through Carrie, figure out who the right person is. But every information report at the bottom has now this is a new thing. It's at the bottom who it's prepared by and who signed off on it. And everyone's email address here is just their first name, do not do their last name at hamilton.ca. So, um, you can reach out to people if you want to propose a motion or or get some some advice or those kinds of things. And please feel free to copy me. I'm happy to help you through the motion crafting process. That's thing number one. Thing number two is what I'm going to ask staff to do for each information report is identify whether or not there's a next step proposed. So, sometimes in an information report today, they're telling you we're going to do X. We're letting you know, we're going to come back and tell you what's happening in Q4 2027. But I want them to identify that upfront so we don't have a lot of questions trying to get to that answer. Um secondly, if there's a report coming forward where there isn't a next proposed step right at this point or staff don't have anything they're going to be doing next. I want them also just to identify there isn't something coming up here. Then you know that's your queue, my queue, whoever's cue to maybe bring a motion forward based on that. A great example that is the Jarvis Memorial clock tower. There's a bunch of different things that can going on in there. We've given kind of options but staff isn't saying pick this one. We're saying here's the information you asked for. It's up to us and the community to figure out what do we think is a reasonable step. Does that all make sense? Okay. As we go through these, I'll stop at each one, get staff to do that before we get into questions and answers. First one, 7.1 peed 25226B, which means it's been back here more than once. Noise control bylaw street performance. So, first I need to move her in second order to put the report on the floor. Moved by member Moran, seconded by member Sarafa. Now it's on the floor. Staff are here to available to ask answer questions. Before we do that, I just want to check in with staff first to see as we're as we're playing this game. Um, are you sitting in this information report what you'll be doing next and when you'll be coming back? >> Thank you, counselor. Uh, my name is Dan Smith. I'm the director of licensing and bylaw services. Um, so with this information report, what we're um going to continue to do based on the information that's provided within the report and the data that's been supplied is continue to monitor some of the hotspots that we've that we've identified that have been identified through conversation and council um and do follow-up visits where operationally feasible at those locations. We will also continue to provide uh updated data at our annual um our where we provide annual information on just data in general from our our our team and uh that will be shared through our planning committee reports. >> Okay. Any questions that people want to ask of Dan? I'm looking here. I see first member Walsh. Go ahead. >> Hi. Uh thank you through the chair. I just wanted to check on the chart too. Uh shows some numbers about uh different service requests and then how they followed through. And I see that there's 11 service requests and eight were no violation marked. Can you explain what those typically look like? Are they not meeting the level of noise or um what's happening in those situations? Certainly through the chair. Um I also have supervisor of operations and enforcement Tamara Reed here to assist if there's anything additional to add. Uh typically when an officer is going to investigate a uh issue related to noise, we will go and make an assessment of the the violation u based on the occurrence that has happened, the type of noise that's taking place and ultimately an a review from the point of reception at the of the location of the complaint. So, if the officer is of the opinion that we do not have a noise that is deemed to be unreasonable or one that would be a disturbance to an inhabitant of the community, uh they would mark that as a uh a nonviolation and close file. >> Perfect. Thank you. >> Just to clarify um to make sure that you got the whole answer to your question, was that also in response to amplified noise or just in response to noises where it's about a decibel level? because I'm sure there's just situations where people are not permitted to amplify anything regardless of the decibel limit. So could you maybe clarify that point? Meaning like obviously if you're amplifying noise and it's very very loud and is reaching a certain decel limit um you might be using technology to measure the limit to determine whether the uh volume of the noise is the problem. However, there are some situations where people are required to have permits for having noise amplification at all. So in those situations, how do you how do you judge between those situations and what goes on there? >> Certainly. Uh so through the chair, if we are sorry, I'm trying to think of the best way to answer that question. So there's some diff there's definitions or some clarification within the bylaw about what an unreasonable noise would be. One of those would be music coming from a speaker or an amplification device. Just because somebody's using an amplification device doesn't mean it's a violation of the bylaw. It would be an assessment of the noise that is being emanated from there or whether it is associated with an event or something where maybe a noise exemption permits been issued. Um but it would just be the level of noise ultimately that we would be analyzing. >> I'll add myself to the speakers list. I've got a few more questions about that. But uh do you mind if I ask them now? Member Wakeford. I know you're next in the list. Do you mind if I ask them? Thanks. So my understanding and I won't get too deeply into it is there's a report that's out um called the Bergman report from Pride 2019 and there's a whole list of different recommendations about bylaws there and there's an analysis of the city of Hamilton's bylaws and some discussion there about noise amplification in general and permits from his amplification. So for instance at that event in 2018 I believe not 2019 uh there were individuals who came and they had amplified sound and they were saying things and so on and so forth and it was deemed at some point in that entire process that just amp having amplified sound in an area where there's a permit holder or there's it's it's city property and you don't have a permit to be doing that activity is in itself a problem. And you're saying though it's not you're saying it's only if that is unreasonable which is news to me. I'm wanting to clarify that. Yep. Through the chair. First um transparency, I'm not aware of that report. However, the way that we conduct our our inspections now operationally based on our bylaw is that our officer would make their determination based on the level of noise that is occurring. An amplification of noise would certainly cons be considered as part of what we would think could be making an unreasonable noise or noise that would be um a disturbance. Um, but depending on the level of noise and the purpose of it, the officer may make their own evaluation of what the occurrence is actually happening and whether it's an unreasonable noise or not. >> Great. So, I'm going to give you an example and I'm asking you to make a bylaw call on the floor necessarily, but kind of. So, a routine activity that occurs is amplification of noise at on the corner of King and James in front of Jackson Square. And it's often people who like to give us a message about something. and the message they want to give us is quite loud and you can hear it from several blocks away um in every direction. At what point is that considered a violation and then not considered a violation? Because I think that I'm curious to understand some of these statistics in the context of frankly maybe the bylaw needs to be changed to say that you need a permit to use amplification on city property period when if you don't have one you can't do it. And again that was my understanding based on other reports that were out in the past. But how is that determination made? because of course King and James is a noisy area so you take that into consideration but um the entire area is blanketed by vacant parcels so all the noise echoes across every part of the downtown area when you have even someone having a conversation on a speaker down there you can hear it up nine floors so I'm trying to understand how officers are making those determinations and are they saying basically yeah 100% of the time when you're down there doing that it's going to be a problem or is this left up to people's judgment as to what they consider to be allowed through the chair. So ultimately it's officer discretion. The officer would be assessing the situation and making a determination if they felt the noise was unreasonable or was disturbing one of the inhabitants of the community. They would do that based on uh their assessment of the situation at hand at the location plus potentially a point of reception where the complaint is coming from. But in short is officer discretion. >> Okay. Last question for me. Uh so what's the best way to deal with this in your opinion? because I do think it's a problem. It's a gap. It doesn't matter if um you're getting a complaint from somebody on the story of the building every time, right? It could be just someone who's in the proximity of the area who knows about it. Full transparency, I've called in many times about this because I happen to be walking downtown a lot and encounter it and I say, "What's going on?" So I'm just asking like is there a remedy here for like what's the remedy asking you to come back and report back on this to get a sense of what might be changed in the bylaw with respect to amplified noise or how to improve that or what? I'm trying to understand that >> uh through the chair. I mean it would be at committee's discretion if they wish us to look at the bylaw to see if there's improvements that can be made. I will say that we do use best practices and the majority of municipalities that I'm aware of do use the same type of evaluation of noise as we do. Um, so I would say our next step is continuing to do the enforcement that we're doing, educating our staff and making sure our staff are trained to understand what a disturbance is versus what would be a nonviolation of the issue. Um, but I would leave it up to committee's discretion if they wish for further work to be done. >> Okay, that's homework for me. Thank Thank you. I'll take the chair back over to you, member Wakeford. >> Thank you through the chair. I would like to thank staff uh Dan Smith and Tamara Reed for preparing both of these reports. Uh they have been helpful to me in terms of providing some context and understanding about noise issues in the downtown. And those are it's all based on available data, level of service, and what our exist existing bylaws are. However, um to uh counselor Crutch's earlier point, so where do we go from here? Um even though uh I heard earlier from staff member Dan Smith that we would be continuing to monitor hotspots and data would be updated. There are still um outstanding issues mostly around religious groups using amplified sound in the downtown core. Um I think uh there's sort of the missing piece around street performance um and what we may hear back from tourism and culture about that. Um but where do we go from here? Because there are still issues. Um, and I'm perhaps the chair and I could work on a motion for an upcoming meeting as to what we might recommend. Sounds good. I don't think there was a question in there. Just homework for you and I. So, I'll copy you on my email. Apart from that, I don't see other questions on this report at this time. So, at this point, we'll go move to receive the report. All those in favor of receiving this report. Okay, that's everybody. And that report is received. We'll now move from this report on to peed 26113 Hamilton night guides pilot project. Can I have a mover and second to put this report on the floor? Moved by member Walsh, seconded by Vice Chair Braithweight. This was a chance for us to have a little bit more of an in-depth reporting back on this and so we have that information before us. Does anyone have questions? I don't think anything's being proposed here. I'm just going to look over to staff. this isn't something we're we're proposing something, but I'll turn it to Lisa Abbott for more information on that first. >> Thank you. Uh Lisa Abbott, director of culture and tourism. Um so there are no recommendations coming out of this. This report is an information report uh to give you more information on the pilot that was run. >> Okay. So we have any more questions on the pilot that was run? Thank you very much for providing this information. It may at some point lead to hopefully more pilot programs or a motion from somebody here who says, "Hey, I've got this information. What can we do next?" because I know this has been a springboard for some ideas from people here. So, thank you for your report. All's in favor of receiving the report. A show of hands. That is everyone. We're on to PW26125 item 7.3, the updated memorial clock tower. Can I first have a mover and second to put the report on the floor. Moved by Vice Chair Braithway, seconded by member Edmonds. I'll turn to staff briefly to see if they could comment on again if they're proposing anything in this report or not. Yep. >> Thank you through the chair. Uh again, Lisa Abbott, tourism and culture director. Uh so uh we uh came back with some information around the clock tower. Um some of the things that were in the motion we are happy to address right off the bat. Tourism and culture will um be happy to assume ownership of the clock tower. Um we have provided in the report um some information about the refurbishment of the clock tower um uh at the at the discretion of the committee uh if we wanted to proceed with a procurement uh um exercise in order to get a more detailed um cost estimate. Uh we have since the report was written to today, we have uh done some work with our um heritage planning and museum staff uh to determine that the the clock tower itself does not necessarily have significant heritage value, but at the same time is a lovely asset in the community and I'm happy to uh uh respond to the direction of the committee as to next steps. >> Thanks. Like I said at the top of the meeting, we have our next meeting to work on motions there. And frankly, would probably be good to have some time to talk to some of the people in the community who raised this issue and see what they think because there are several options with respect to costs. So just checking in with people if they have questions about this before we receive it. Yeah, Vice Chair Braithweight, go ahead. >> Um, thank you Lisa for putting that together. That was really helpful for us to have. It was the information we had to, but very helpful to see that it lines up with what you have. Um, mine's more of a comment more than a a question. Um, looking at the clock tower, you know, we will be working on a motion to have something done with that, obviously. Um, but, you know, just to make it clear, if it's going to cost an insane amount of money to repair, there's other ways we can repurpose, I think, the memorial that the BI would be supportive of, and so we can talk about that offline. I think, um, the other the one thing I do just want to raise is that a lot of the wording in the report spoke about relocating it. I would like that to read relocating within the boundaries of International Village. We don't want to lose that asset. It's become a landmark for us. It's always been there. It's something that the residents really like. So, just just to flag that as um something that my board was concerned with. So, but thank you for putting that together. >> Thanks very much. Anybody else with questions or comments? No. I expect we'll see a motion in August about this. All those in favor of receiving this information report by show of hands. That is everyone. Thank you so much. And we're moving along to 7.4, waste receptacles in the downtown core, PW25059A, item 7.4 as I said. And again, I'll turn to staff to see if they could comment on what they're planning to do or if this is just again options for consideration. >> Hi everybody. Uh Cynthia Graham, director of environmental services. So this report was in response to a request for additional information and ideas and options of how we can do waste receptacles in parks in the downtown area differently. So the uh report is just a a series of information. uh staff went and and uh thought through what some different options could be. Looked at uh costs and um implications for how frequently uh the different receptacles would have to be emptied based on uh capacity and anticipated use and uh the information is there for consideration. Uh we do not have a recommendation uh one way or the other. >> Thanks very much. I don't see other people adding themselves at this time. So, I'll go ahead with a few questions and comments about this. When I looked at the report, I saw the various options there and some seem more costly than others. One was about repurposing the steel the steel drums by painting them a different color and putting a logo on them. Of course, it doesn't address the key issue that most people are complaining about is that used for dumping. So, it's a lot more difficult to dump your household garbage in the Jubilee style cans. And again, those are the cans that you see in front of city hall, the ones you see around downtown. Much more difficult to do that. it's much more difficult to set fire to those than it is to with the steel drum cans. So, doesn't really solve that problem. Um, I also noticed that we kind of only had give were given those kinds of options basically. Um, when I look at other municipalities and what they're doing, there's just there's just so many different varieties of garbage cans out there. There's some that are housed together with recycling and garbage in the same one. Whereas here with the Jubilee style, you have to have a waste container and then you have to have a separate recycling container. And we have a few of those downtown, notably King and James out in front of City Hall. There's a couple others, but not very many. And I assuming, this is my question, that the cost would double if we wanted to add recycling in some places. So, if there were key areas where we wanted recycling, if we wanted a Jubilee container and the cost of a Jubilee container, it would simply be just to double that cost if we wanted to have a recycling container beside it. >> Uh, thank you, Angela Story, director of Waste Management, and through the chair. Um, as you'll recall, the uh recycling program has been up uh uploaded to the producers of paper and plastic packaging um at the provincial level. So to add recycling to any of the containers, street side or in parks, uh the contents would end up in the garbage. >> I see. So I didn't know that actually. I didn't realize that the city was also subject to that. Is that because we're non-resed non-residential? And so are you saying, which is I guess interesting news and I'm sure will generate some conversation, discussion in the community now that you've said it out loud, is that all recycling that's currently collected through city recycling bins is going into waste >> uh through the chair. Uh except for non-eligible sources. Um so from this perspective, uh we don't have uh GFL or contractor that is contracted to pick up the businesses, the daycarees, the special events, the city facilities. So those are still being recycled under the program that we're under right now. But the parks recycling and streetside litter containers was originally included in the regulation. Whatever we had at a certain point of time, they would continue and then they removed it from uh the regulation through an amendment. >> So to simplify this, the one in front of city hall, yes. The one in a park, no. The one by a street side, no. So are we removing those by the street side then so that we're not creating that confusion for people? cuz I feel like I recycled in one recently >> through the chair. Yes. In fact, uh because we are asked for so many new uh Jubilee containers in different locations, it makes some sense once we get to the end of our current inventory to repurpose those ones. >> Okay. Thank you. That's helpful to know. So my question for you then about this is with respect to costs, we're just looking at what the city of Hamilton's already contracted to do. So the costs are associated already with just either the steel bins that we have those metal I believe we have metal um containers I think they're in Durand Park and there's some on city hall property the fluted containers and then there's the um the Jubilee containers and that's the three options that we have before us because that's what we're already tendered and contracted with services to provide. Is that right? through the chair. Um when staff took a look at sort of what the options might be, they seemed to provide a range of um aesthetics and efficiency and uh using material that we already have and that our staff are set up to be able to um facilitate the the emptying for. Um as you mentioned, there's lots of different designs of containers. Um, essentially the message in the information though is the smaller the container, the more often it has to be emptied. And the more um maneuvering of the equipment that staff have to do to get the container to empty it, the longer it takes and therefore it costs more. So I think essentially that's the message of the report. If there's other designs that um would be of interest to take a look at, certainly we can cost those out, we felt that this provided a range to be able to start that conversation. >> Okay, just a brief comment for me to say that it's helpful to know this. It's good to know what the province's limitations are with respect to recycling and why some things aren't being collected. My comment is that yeah, we need to get these replacements to happen. And I realized there's a bit of a high price tag on that, but part of downtown revitalization, part of supporting people in parks is making sure that we have garbage cans that are better than the simple steel drum. Not just from an attractiveness perspective, because I think again you can wrap those and make them look as nice as you want. And that's obviously a nice option. It's a cheap option, but it's not going to stop the problem of people dumping in them and them not being as secure because of course the other garbage cans are much more secure. And I realize it'll have staffing implications in terms of having more staff required to be able to to empty them more frequently. But that's the reality of a changing downtown. I was recently in Stratford, Ontario, and noticed they had a similar system there um with the GR with the uh steel steel drums there and some other cities do it. But again, uh it doesn't look it didn't look good. They're dinged up. You know, you have to replace them when they get dinged up. And um I don't think it's a a look that people think feel inspired about when they're downtown, right? So, I'll be moving a motion at some point with respect to this report. Just notice about that. Um, next up, uh, Ana Leto member, go ahead. >> Uh, Ana Leto, I am a member of the BC Neighborhood Association. I'm also the school council chair at Dr. Davyy. Um, I wanted to just maybe provide a little bit of maybe information from the Beasley neighborhood. Um, you know, all of us kind of use a lot of the parks in the downtown core. Um, I find that, you know, the two parks in our area that are kind of the main paths throughs would be John and Rebecca Park and Beasley Park. Um, I live right beside Beasley Park. I see the impacts of having the open barrels and I thought the report was really great. It gave me some really good insight as to kind of why we have the barrels. Um, my concerns with continuing to use the barrels are that they're you listed the the mobility of the barrels as being a benefit. What we find in the parks downtown is those barrels grow legs and walk and we have a lot of difficulty um also keeping them in areas where people are actually using them. So a lot of the times they end up in the middle of the playground, they end up along fences. They end up being tipped over. All the garbage is blown out. So, we would hope that if there is a decision to change the bins, that the bins are ones that are not open top, are not the huge barrels, something that stops garbage from being picked up, something that stops garbage from being blown out. Um, we have enough garbages right now and I know there's a lot of transition between winter and summer garbages, but over the winter due to the proximity of these parks, we also still have the foot traffic through. So, losing those bins during the winter also is a hindrance and also creates a whole bunch of extra garbage. So I would hope whatever the committee here has decided that you know you take into effect that it's not just actually aesthetics it's also functionality. So I don't know I can add to that but if you don't mind me taking a small liberty just to translate your comment into a question. So I assume the report accounts for the summer positionality of parks garbages. Meaning if we replaced every parks garbage that we have in the summer with a Jubilee can in Beasley Park for example, then we wouldn't see a diminishment of the number of garbage cans seasonally because we don't remove Jubilee cans. Is that right? >> Through the chair. Uh if if there was a transition from the park barrels to the Jubilees, we still probably would need to remove um some of the locations similar to how we do in winter because uh our staff complement goes down significantly in the winter. And uh there are some park paths that are not maintained in the winter and therefore would be inaccessible for our staff to maintain. And so probably what would happen is we would have to look at the locations um adjust the service and figure out where we would remove uh for winter condition um similarly to how we do the barrels. But since they're a smaller container, we would have to figure out uh which locations actually would get removed. >> So that could be something we talk about in terms of not perhaps not removing them in some parks because they do have a high amount of foot traffic. There are obviously some parks that are a little more diff that are different that are smaller that where some internal or interior pathways you wouldn't need that garbage can there in a winter because it's going to have it's going to be impassible but at a place like Beasley Park I think what um Anya is saying is you know that's a main thoroughare frankly from Canon through to Wilson and and so on. Um you were going to say something director story. Sorry go ahead. >> Thanks. No no no worries. I just wanted to um support what Cynthia is saying in the sense from the install of the containers, we do need a concrete pad or a sunken in patio stone, something like that. So, even if they were removed, you would still be left with whatever they were bolted to when they were installed. >> Okay, that's helpful information and I'll work on trying to translate this into a motion at some point soon, possibly for the budget process, and we can work together on that. Okay, any other questions or comments for this report? Not seeing any. At this point, we need a mover in second or two to receive the report. I didn't get one before. Member Moran, member Walsh. All those in favor by show of hands. Thank you. On a 7.5 and we are going all the way, it's just you folks from now to 7.8. So 7.9, pardon me. We're so we're getting there. 7.5 is the followup to the pedestrian safety at the intersection between Street and Walnut PW26034A. Can I please have a move and second to put the report on the floor? Moved by Vice Chair Braithweight, seconded by member Sarafa. I will now turn to the first person on our speakers list, Vice Chair Braithweight. Go ahead. Yeah, thanks for this report and I'm really happy with the um decision to to put it on alternating signals, which is great. So, my board was really happy to hear that as well. So, just positive feedback for that. I think it'll help in that intersection in the meantime until LRT is done and then we can reook at it. But thank you for your work on that because that's really all we were looking for, just to make it safer for people to cross over and not have all cars going at once and being confused. So, thank you so much for that. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, and sorry, I should have said um if you want to just maybe Yeah. highlight what is actually going to be happening here. >> U Vincent Fatza, director of transportation through the chair. This is a followup to the March 2nd report regarding uh pedestrian safety on the intersection of King Street and Walnut Street. And uh this memo provides a bit more implementation details around uh the installation of the split phase traffic signals which we see in the report will happen between now and July. So happen this summer. Great. I don't see other folks on this list to speak to this item. All those in favor of receiving this report by show of hands. That's everybody. Thank you so much. That carries on a 7.6 PW26035. This is pertaining to the work plan for improving infrastructure around BAS on King Street and I'll first turn to Director Saratza for um a brief overview please of where we're where you're recommending or not recommending something happen here. >> Thank you. So once again Vince Saratza, director of transportation and through the chair. Uh this report provides a inventory of the maintenance and capital work which will be undertaken this year in the three subject BI areas in addition to the downtown core. Um so there's a table that um provides a description of all the work that will happen throughout this year um irregardless of the upcoming LRT construction work. Um, in addition, it also provides details on a new process that we must now follow as a result of the LRT uh installation where any planned capital work will have to be submitted to Metro Links and the LRT uh uh group for approval. Um, now in our conversations with them, they've informed us that that process should not take very long and uh would hopefully be favorable on most occasions. But any planned capital work will now have to be subject to this approval process as a result of the LRT work that has started. >> Thanks. I'm not seeing anyone join quickly. Oh, I see someone now. I'll wait. Um, first up is Vice Chair Braithweight. >> Uh, yeah, thanks again for this report and I do understand uh that Metroinks needs to be brought into it. I guess where the frustration lies is that we've been waiting for these repairs for years and years and you know LRT was originally supposed to happen I don't even know how many years ago now I've lost track. So we're hearing from our members that they're literally watching seniors fall and trip and hurt themselves on the sidewalks at this point in time. So, if there's anything that can be done to escalate it, uh, I would ask that that be done. Um, I think at this point waiting around for LRT to happen when there has been no strong timelines given to us. Um, it's just putting more people at risk. Um, and I'm very concerned with the state of things. There's some areas of RBI that are fine, but there's a large chunk of our area that's heavily traffked that definitely needs some remediation and needs done fast. So um I would just reiterate that it is a safety concern at this point in time and it should be dealt with as that. So thank you >> member Walsh here next. >> Thank you uh through the chair. Specifically looking at the appendix B uh and as you mentioned a lot of what's uh noted there is uh appears to be routine maintenance that was already planned and a lot of it does uh doesn't appear to be along King Street itself. So I was curious uh what in the report was actually initiate initiated or accelerated based on the motion put forward >> um through the chair. Um so some of the work is capitalbased. It is not just maintenance. It is work that we had planned. So some of the sidewalk replacement work that we identified uh for instance um along uh H Street uh that is work that we will be doing that is capital based. It's not regular maintenance work. Um in addition to that uh we do identify some repairs to the pavers um and sidewalks along James Street as well. Um, now I'd also just want to say that any work that is related to safety, we would appreciate that be brought to our attention because that is something that will not be subject to an LRT review for a permit. So, that is something that we could initiate very quickly. But, uh, yeah, some of the the sidewalk replacement work that's identified in the table is, uh, new capital work. I do have with me as well uh the manager of roadway maintenance um and senior and superintendent Peter Snos and Robert Marcus if there's anything else that they would wish to add from the table. >> Okay, I also have another question. Sorry, did someone want to follow up? >> Sure. Bob Marx, superintendent of uh roadway maintenance. Um, just to to add on to what Vince was saying there, um, we we've escalated some of the the concerns in the H Street Village area and we're planning on completing uh quite a few sidewalk repairs through that area. We have taken an inventory of um, issues along King Street. So, we will be sending, you know, crew through to make sure it's safe uh, for the time being and if there's any permanent uh, repairs that we can complete at this time, then we'll look at doing that as well. >> Okay. Thank you. I think uh one of the frustrations is that we specifically noted things like the flower beds along King Street where there is permanent repairs needed and then the report here just says that um those aren't going to be taken care of. So that's a little frustrating to hear. Uh but I was also just curious about the sidewalk repairs. What goes into deciding whether or not a sidewalk's replaced versus just patched with the ash vault? because we're getting to a point downtown where we're seeing sculptural work being done with the ashvault there to mold these pieces that are entirely missing instead of replacing them itself. So, can you talk to how that decision is made? >> Certainly. I'll start and then I'll turn it over to uh Peter and I'll um the ashalt repairs are usually installed as a temporary measure to deal with the immediate safety issue, the trip hazard. So when you see asphalt applied, it's because um we do have a service level that we have to comply with in terms of addressing the safety issue within that timeline. So that's where you see the ash fault applied. Then with respect to then the ultimate replacement of the uh sidewalk again it's in based on a scheduling basis how much planned work capital budget that's available to us um and also um again if there's a imminent safety need for that but I'll turn it over to Peter Snalis if there's anything further. >> Good afternoon. Peter Smolos, manager of roadway maintenance through the chair. Just building on what Vince did say. So there is a provincial regulation that requires us to inspect sidewalks once every 16 months. Um there is a threshold in terms of a trip hazard or safety issue that when we are aware of that issue, whether it's through our inspection or whether that's through a reported uh issue through the city line, we do repair it within 14 days. And a temporary repair could be ashvault, it could be grinding, as Vince alluded to there. In terms of the long-term repairs, we do have a a dedicated budget of, I believe, $1.2 million for sidewalk repairs around the entire city. So, that is uh split up amongst, you know, uh the various wards around the city and we replace them when they um get to the end of their life cycle. As a followup to that, do you know if those schedules account for the increased usage and density downtown >> through the chair? They do not currently. Um, this is completely an assetbased analysis at this time. However, that has been brought up through our team and this is under consideration and has been in discussion over the past year. >> Okay, perfect. Um, all I just have to say is that I think we just didn't quite hit the mark with this one. I think we had asked for a costed and um fully um fleshed out work plan for improving the assets along King Street that are not being improved due to LRT and I just don't think we really got that here. So, I wouldn't feel comfortable removing it from the Obl quite yet. >> Thanks. I'll take back the chair and um I'm going to speak now I guess because no other speakers. Yeah, I'm just going to shed some light on some of this from my perspective as the war two counselor because I've been involved in these discussions for a long time and staff have helped put some financial information together for me so I can give you a sense of the scope and scale of this problem. When I first took office there was maybe 80 something thousand allocated of the $1.2 $2 million to board two based on the kilome kilometer length of sidewalks here which I was pretty annoyed by because it didn't take into consideration at that time the asset condition in terms of use like how heavily are these sidewalks being used. So through some advocacy internally and through the budget process that was increased so now at one point we were getting $140 $250,000 from the $1.2 million being allocated to W 2 because of the use. Then I also have $180,000 given to me every year again through the budget process is something called minor maintenance money. So combine that together, right? And you see we have about $320,000 to spend every year here. But that amount of $144,000 at its peak has gone down um since then because we've managed to improve some of the sidewalks downtown. F stay with me here. So in this term of council, I've invested in total from the sources available to me more than $2 and a half million dollars on sidewalks downtown. So it means the sidewalk assets in downtown are much better than they were. And with this kind of investment going forward, probably for a few more years, we'll be able to eventually catch up to a point of where the city's service standards are. But because before this period of time about 300 I don't know $50,000 was was over the whole previous term was invested in sidewalks period. That was it. And so there's been backlogs for years and years and terms and terms of no advanced maintenance being done and then the situation occurring. So this massive investment this time around has been about trying to correct that wrong. But then what it's done has reduced the overall portion that we're allotted from the city because sidewalks are in better repair. So I have a big problem with that. I also have a problem with the fact that even though we've asked for an equity analysis on this and I've asked for it in public 10 times now, I still can't get one to happen. And so hopefully with next year's budget, there's finally a mandate for equity analysis in the budget that we might actually start looking at downtown and ask ourselves, wait a minute, if the majority of people are walking on these sidewalks, if these sidewalks have the most use, if the most seniors of disabilities need to use these sidewalks, and so on and so forth, that we actually start treating them differently and start looking at them differently. I'll put a period there and say and King Street has always been an exception until recently. So internal policy, I was told this by staff was that basically the LRT corridor was off the list, off the limits, out of limits because it was going to be replaced anyways when LRT came. So why would we throw good money uh away and have to replace those assets again if we're just going to be doing it in another five years? Well, that five years of course turned from 5 to 15. And so people now are understandably upset because early works have begun for LRT, meaning that we have no sense of when this cor portion of the corridor, which LRT themselves, the Metro Links themselves called the most difficult to do portion of the corridor on the entire 14 km, right? Which means I doubt it's coming to happen on day one. They're probably going to want to look at other portions of the corridor that are less challenging, work on those, and see what our conditions at Hamilton are before they approach the most challenging section. But who knows? So, my problem with all of this is that yeah, I think we need to get the costs. So, I know you said you'd done um Bob had said he'd done an analysis of on King Street where the deficiencies were, but I haven't seen the costs for that. And I think this committee should see the costs of that. So, I think that's something I'd be asking for to come back to this committee at our August meeting are what are the costs to repair sidewalks and King Street. And secondly, what are the costs to shave and pave the section from Wellington through to Queen? And the reason why I say that is because that's the section of these three BAS on King Hes International downtown BA. That's the section that um that's the sort of basis of this motion are those three BAS. And I know we did shave and pave um I want to remember this James to Bay, right? We did that last year, but we didn't do the rest of it. And so I recognize that we're not going to tear the whole roadway up and reconstruct the roadway when we're having a reconstructed roadway party at some point in the future through LRT, but getting the roadway into a condition where it's somewhat drivable and again looks like a place anyone would want to be and addressing those ashalt repairs because I I hear your point, Vince, which is like well usually we try to um get to the ashvault repairs quickly. You went for a walk with me on Main Street and King Street and we identified some old ash fault. That is certainly not within our service standards. Now, Main Street two-way conversion is going to take care of some of these things, and that's really great. But for King Street, we're still left in a situation where I'll tell you, seniors have literally fallen in broken hips on sections of the sidewalk that are not in good repair. For those who've walked on James Street North lately, you'll see we took all the the concrete, we took all the concrete away. We made sure the trees were protected. you put it back in the right way. We did it in a way so it was level because there were problems with the shifting and lifting because of all the tree branches and so on. So the King Street needs the same treatment. There's that section right in the International Village that's just famously by the Jarvis parking lot between that Jarvis parking lot in Wellington on that side where it's just like uh you know best of luck as you try navigating this. Um and many many seniors use that area. So I just want to flag that I do think we need to know the costs of repairing all the sidewalks on King Street. the costs of doing um that repaving work in the area. That's the least we can do to make the BIA areas look like they're business improvement areas. I mean, I think that's if we can't do every single thing else. And again, simple things like planting the flower beds, I think also something we have to look at like what are the costs of those things, right? So, I think we just need to know what they are because it's difficult for me at this point to bring forward a motion or anyone here to say we want to bring forward a motion to make a recommendation to council if we don't have the costs. So, that's my motion. hoping someone a second just to say that we can bring those three things back are the costs for the garden beds, the costs for the sidewalks, and the costs for um the roadway repaving. I'm not chairing right now, so I need you to to do that. Uh Vice Chair Braithweight. >> All right. So, can I get a mover for that motion? >> Me, >> counselor or seconder? Sorry, Emily. speak. >> Sorry. >> Is there speaker? >> Sorry. Uh through the chair, Cynthia Graham, director of environmental services. I just want to give a little bit of context with respect to the garden beds. Yes, they aren't functional, but even if they were, we wouldn't use them because the trees um the roots are so compact in those planting areas that it would damage the trees in order to restore the irrigation systems in those planting beds. So, we can bring back a cost, but it staff would not recommend at this time to actually do the work. >> Okay. Okay, I have a question about that. If you could expand on that a little bit more. So, you're saying all the beds along King Street that aren't currently planted, the reason they're not planted is because what you're saying is that to plant something, anything there, it would cause damage to the tree roots that are adjacent to those beds >> through the chair. Correct. So, they're typically uh planted the the trees are very mature. There is a density of roots in those planting areas. the um there have been attempts to have uh ornamental flowers growing in those beds over time. They're not successful because there's not enough light that gets to them. And uh when watering is required, we do go by with watering trucks in order to to give them the water that they need. So the the watering isn't the issue necessarily with these planting beds. It's the density of the roots in the the beds with the trees. >> All right, maybe we can take that up offline and talk to you about what other uses could be happening with those beds because right now there are beds with dirt in them and that looks terrible, right? So, like if you can't put something in them that's a certain thing, u maybe it's mosses, maybe it's like I don't know, I'm not a plant expert, but um maybe there's some way to have installations in those beds. And so maybe that's part of our report pack is what is possible there. Um considering that maybe the types of plants we typically plant in those beds won't be suitable. What other type of thing could be suitable for these beds? Could you report on that because I think that's what I think people are asking for is just to understand what else could be done with those beds >> through the chair. I will ask my very creative team to come back with some options. >> Okay. Thank you. So I think we have that. I'll let Susie get the vote on that. Oh, my thing's on. Okay. Uh, can we have a a vote to receive the report, please? All in favor? Okay, it's carried. >> What motion? Oh, sorry. Can I get a All in favor of the motion? Carried. Sorry, it's been a crazy two weeks for me. I'm slightly brain dead. >> It's okay. I do this for a living. It's fine. Um, thank you very much. So, the report's been received and that motion has been approved. So, we'll come back. I'm hoping it can come back. Yeah. Uh, Dre Sarza >> through the chair. Uh, well, we certainly can report back on the cost analysis. Um, I don't know if the motion identified a date, but uh, we respectfully request that we report back to the October 15th uh, downtown subcommittee in light of the fact of timelines getting to clarin to all the approvers. >> Sure, that sounds fine. And we'll just make that retroactive amendment. Thank you for catching that. Thank you. >> Forgot to include a timeline. And now we're on to 7.7. Information regarding the Wellington Park Fountain PW26043. This is truly an information report, I believe. I don't think there's any action items in here, but I'll look over in case there are. >> Through the chair, Cynthia Graham, director of environmental services. All the actions that would have been done are already done. My understanding is the fountain is functional and was part of the work plan this year. So, we're happy to provide the information. >> Thank you so much, mover. Second will put the report on the floor. Vice Chair Braithweight. Member Moran. All those in favor, a show of hands. Receiving it. Thank you. That's carried. 7.8 PW2604 Main Street Renewal and Redesign Project Update. And I first have a mover and a second to put the report on the floor. Moved by member um Moran and then seconded by members Rafa. So at this point, I'm going to see if there's any questions for staff about this report. There's a lot of information there, but people have questions they want to ask. First up is member Walsh. >> Uh just looking at the different phases that were outlined in the report, uh it mentioned phase 2 preconstruction. Can you share some more about what that phase involves and when it will begin? >> Yes. Uh Brian Hauling, director of uh engineering services for public works. Um the phases uh identified in the report uh just for the broader information includes phase one early awareness. We're kind of in that now uh pre-construction then during construction and and completion. Um we've been working closely with uh communications and other partners including economic development to develop the strategies. Um there are some of them are identified in this report. I will note that we've already got the web page we call them storyboards up and running. So folks are curious about the design, they can go on there and look at at what it entails. Um we've also been working um we prepared uh postcards. Um they're being dropped off as we speak, 800 postcards to businesses with a QR code where uh folks can contact us for further information and questions and we look forward to the feedback. Uh there was a council communications that was uh done uh last week. And so those are kind of some of the early activities. As we move closer to uh construction, which by the way is planned for September, uh we'll be doing uh further notices to businesses. Uh we may have some dropin centers where people come come in and ask questions. uh but we're we're trying to go above and beyond for this project just because it is it is so significant in terms of its uh scale and scope. >> Okay. Thank you. Um and then also I remember seeing back in 2024 that the accelerated construction approach was approved and it brought the timeline down from 30 months to 24. This now looks like we're closer to 16. Can you uh explain the difference there? What changed? um you're talking about yeah um we've been working uh that accelerated uh process was related to the detailed design uh so we we retained a consultant uh WSP group uh who's been uh working away for the past uh year and a half preparing the designs uh as mentioned we're at the tender stage so that that work is done and uh Mitchell not can speak to any reasons for any changes I don't think there was too much of a change stages of construction. >> Can I just add I believe in that report there was also a period of about 30 months for the detailed design and then the construction itself was cited to take 30 months reduced down to 24 with the different um accelerated activities included in there. >> Yes, sorry I I thank you for uh clarifying the question. In terms of the construction schedule, as mentioned, we're uh proposing to start in September um and carry through till the end of 2027. I should um describe the the different phases of construction, the different activities um because it's it's not a full-blown building phase to building phase road reconstruction. Um essentially the first phase will be um repairing all of the curb ramps and updating them to to meet modern AODA standards. Uh replacing some of the broken and degraded uh curbs along the sidewalks. Uh we're also replacing a lot of the underground traffic signal infrastructure which is decades old. Uh so modernizing that. So that will involve uh ripping up the road. Uh and then there's the resurfacing itself. Um which is probably going to go very quickly but it'll go in stages. Um so that's our our broad timelines. Uh further information will be provided once we are closer to the tender stage. >> Okay. I do appreciate all the information in the report. I appreciate the web page going up on economic development. I do just think that we really do need to get moving on getting people notified on this even with the um water main relining. I know as a BIA we were given under a week notice that that was going to be happening on Main Street. And so I just uh want to highlight that I really think we need some firm dates, some solid engagement going on in the next four to six months before construction actually begins. Thank you >> through through the chair if if I may just comment and and thank you very much for raising the water man lining. Um that's the project that folks see out there that's happening right now. Um it's upgrading the the local water main service to you know it'll it'll last uh hopefully decades. Uh we decided to do that in advance of the resurfacing because we didn't want to come along 5 years later and rip up the road. So um thanks thanks for raising that. We recognize that it has caused a lot of uh impacts to the traveling public. >> Thanks very much. And now I'm on to member Moran. >> Uh yeah, thank you. Um so the report does talk about a business focused mitigation approach. >> Hi. Uh so the report does talk about a business focused mitigation approach. Um are there more details on what specific supports will be in place or introduced to support businesses during that time? >> Yeah. Um one of the first things is is early communication uh so that businesses can start planning around things and know what's going to happen uh when. And a lot of that is included in the story maps on on the website so people can kind of look at and say, "Okay, here's here's how I'm I'm impacted." Uh we're also looking at um some enhanced signage um you know similar to some of the things that were done on on Lock Street uh to let people know that businesses are open. Uh I should also note that you know we don't expect to fully close the road at any point um even through the resurfacing we'll do um two lanes come through with shave and pave and then and transit will still be moving through the corridor. So I I think the biggest impacts will be just on um navigating through the construction site. Parking impacts of course um will be another impact. >> Thanks. And I now see uh Trina. Go ahead. >> Thank you. And through the chair, I want to thank staff for the report and to echo Emily, it's important to get this information out to to businesses as soon as possible. I had a question around the um area that talked about traffic capacity perspectives and uh what performance measurements we're using to track uh and and use that information to improve the flow of traffic where we have that construction happening and those pinch points. >> Um yes, so there there will be if if I understand your question correctly, maybe there's there's two um stages of traffic impacts. one one during construction as and as noted we're going to try and keep at least two lanes open during construction um so we keep things moving not just traffic but also buses and then post construction um I probably won't go through the detailed design but essentially uh from Dunduran to uh Victoria um coming off the 403 will be carrying three lanes of traffic westbound one lane of traffic eastbound uh with left turn lanes we've we've modeled that and uh it it should function uh well. Um and the whole intent of this court these a lot of these changes by the way are to calm calm traffic. Um so that one way to do that is to uh rationalize capacity a little bit and then as you as we go eastward um through the through the downtown it will narrow down to two lanes westbound one lane eastbound plus plus turning lanes which will really help with traffic movement. Uh there's also upgrades to the active transportation facilities from um from Victoria to Sherman as well. So uh if that didn't answer your question, um we're happy to go into more detail. >> It it partially did. Thank you. Um are we monitoring the capacity during the construction phase? >> Um typically we we don't because it's a relatively short uh duration. uh we do on a day-to-day basis monitor how traffic is doing and in some cases for example we have to mitigate uh cut through neighborhoods and the like. Uh we have a lot of um experience with managing traffic on York Boulevard which was a major project last year. Um but I think in this case we we we've been monitoring traffic for the last four years and we'll continue to do so through construction and and well well beyond uh and not just traffic volumes but also traffic speeds as well. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. And now we're go back to go to Vice Chair Braithweight. Go ahead. >> Uh thank you for the report. I think it's the most information we've seen on this for a while. So that's great. I did just want to ask one question. It says in the coming weeks you will be sharing the finalized design. Do you have a date for that that we can expect it? >> Yes. So in the report there's a link to um it's called the I think is we call it in the reports the story boards. Um but if you Google the Main Street renewal and redesign project, uh the story boards include the designs for the different areas. And if that's not detailed enough for you, we'd happy to drop off a copy to your office as well and sit down with you and go through it. >> Well, that was going to be >> They're publicly available now. >> That'd be great. That was going to be my next comment. I think before this goes public, really public, it'd be great if you did meet with the TBI with Emily and myself. Um, we know what our businesses need. We know what accesses they need for truck deliveries and things like that that may have been missed on the initial design that we saw. So, it' be great if in the next couple weeks that could be arranged to uh to like come and meet with us and go over how our individual areas will be impacted. So, we're very clear when we're sending messages out to our members and we have answers for them if they need it >> through through the chair. That that would be most welcome. Um we also have we're also coming to the BIA subcommittee next June 20 22nd and looking forward to that as well. appreciate that, but I think seeen as it's going right through Emily and might be, we're going to be the most impacted. We'll probably have need a deeper conversation about it. >> Thank you. And back to member Moran. >> I have actually two questions, so I don't know if maybe I'd combine those now rather than pressing the button again after >> we got there. >> Okay. Uh so I guess I mean the first coming coming off of that question as well too and and previous one I asked is this just when it comes to uh the construction mitigation and and if it's working for businesses uh will there be a way to to properly track or a mechanism to track complaints um or access issues signage issues or or business issues in in real time um to manage that as we go through. So that would be the first question >> uh through the chair. Uh yes. Uh once we move into the construction mode, we have a construction team uh that includes you know many folks uh often they go doortodoor on a regular basis uh offer opportunity for discussion. They're really hands-on. Um they're doing that with the main street relining project right now. Uh there's also a lot of notices. Um for this type of project there would be multiple notices uh about things like potential night work etc. uh we often we will be providing um where there are uh requirements for traffic uh diversions uh we'll be providing information to businesses um so and any other suggestions you have on like really specific needs we'd we'd love to hear them as well thanks >> thank you um and then the second question is just a larger I guess larger question related to just kind of the management and communication I think the the website and what's been communicated great and put out out there is great and proactive. But I I think I mean this item is is really connected to also broader kind of political themes, I think, and and more cynical themes. Anyone who's been on some of the uglier Facebook groups or Reddit boards, um the two-way street conversion can get really bogged down in in a lot of rhetoric. um related to the downtown revitalization strategy, an emphasis on trust building improvements and and positive spaces and public realm downtown. Is there a plan to to maybe optimize some of the the hoarding, the wayfinding um introduce any other um you other other signage that really helps maybe pump up the messaging around this or storytell the messaging around this a bit more? um is even with the the web updates, the communication on the site, you know, the person sitting in traffic along the route is not likely to to be looking at that or wanting to look at that. They're going to stew about it in their car and then complain about it on on Facebook or on online social media sites. Um so it's sort of like how do we control the messaging around this? Um I I should say I'm a big supporter of this and and really excited about it. Um, it's psychotic, but I'm thrilled to be sitting in traffic in the urban environment and in downtown because it's it's a good sign. But, um, yeah, I guess how do we control the narrative a bit more to to kind of reinforce the positive nature of what's being done here? >> Uh, through the through the chair, um, I I didn't mention that we I did mention that we are working with our partners in corporate communications. Uh they're working on a social media strategy as we speak to get out some of the messages that that you talked about. Um you may have noticed a subtle change that we are now calling the main street renewal and redesign project because uh it takes away it it it is much more than a two-way conversion. Um the the re renewing the pavement surface out here will be a a big change for the traveling public. Um so and we're looking at things like sign boards and stuff like that. So, appreciate your support and comments. >> And I see now we're back to member Walsh. >> Sorry, just as a followup on Sus's question about the detailed uh design drawings. Are those the ones that we saw from 2023 or are they the ones that were finished in 2025 that are now posted to the storyboard? C >> I just missed the first part of your question. uh the detailed design drawings that are you were just saying were posted to the storyboard. Are those the ones from the 2023 engagement uh sessions or are those the ones that were finished in 2025? >> Um those those are um our public facing uh designs. Um they're updated from the 2023 drawings. The the configuration is very similar to the what was shown in 2023. Um those drawings you see on the story boards are kind of intended to help the public view it a little bit easier. Um behind those we have um hundreds of pages of detailed design drawings um which would we'd be happy to share but they're they're not suitable for for the public. >> Okay. I just noted that seeing on the website a lot of the design drawings do say that um a lot of things are subject to change and might be updated kind of a thing. So, I don't know that we can take that much information from them reliably. >> Uh, I should follow up with you just to make sure you're looking at the most updated version. So, if if you look at the story boards, those those are the the current designs and um not really subject to to much change at this point. The the older 2023 drawings may still be out there on on a website and thank you for raising that. We'll try and look into that. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Okay. Thank you very much. I'll just make a couple of comments and turn the chair over to Vice Chair Braithweight. I think one of the challenges with this is that there hasn't been an opportunity really for a public presentation on exactly what's going to happen and that's made this a bit tricky. So I think now that the downtown subcommittee is in existence and I've said the same thing to the folks at the downtown re revitalization strategy. If something has a primary impact or will have a significant impact on downtown, this is the place to come. One of the problems I think with this committee and I'm saying this to everybody is that it's new. It also morphed from a very outdated task force model that was like 23 years out of date. So we're trying to adjust to this and most of what comes here, actually all of what comes here is committee generated at this point. If we have that continue to be the case, it's great for our homework here and we're all very motivated to bring things forward. But that's not really representing I think what the overall purpose of the subcommittee is is if there's something impacting downtown, there should be a report coming here about it so that people have a chance to ask questions, see it, be guided through the presentation, and there's documents for people to refer to. And so as this committee evolves, I'm hoping that's more of what will happen. And so I'm saying that out loud because I think that's generally the whole point is we're starting off by trying to give a lot of energy to the things that we want to see being done. But this won't ultimately be a successful subcommittee if we don't get reports here from staff about things that impact the downtown. Thanks. I'll take the chair back and we will go to receive this information report. All those in favor by show of hands. That's everyone that's received and we have one more in terms of information reports. Then we're on to recommendation reports. just so you have a sense of what's ahead. And there are four recommendation reports. This last one here is 7.9 PED26018B ensuring pedestrian access to Jackson Street West and McNab Street South 2. Can I have a mover and second to put the report on the floor? Moved by member Walsh, seconded by member Edmmonds. Any questions from the committee about this? Member Walsh. Go ahead. Yeah. So, through the chair, uh I definitely I really appreciate the efforts that are going in over there. It has definitely made a big difference. Um but what I do still see is that despite 122 trespass notices and over 200 staff hours, the sidewalks are still blocked. So, I'm just wondering um that's a lot of city resources that seem to be going towards managing a really really small uh population over there. So, at what point are we saying that they're not listening and uh change our tactics? >> Uh through the chair, good questions. So, the information that you have in front of you is is very early information and the change that we made in the enhanced enforcement of the the the work that we're doing over there. Um we do still have a number of issues related to risk and related to um reoccurrence um that we're trying to manage and and that's part of what we're doing with this program is really understand what the staffing and resourcing impacts are where it's successful um where we still need further uh work to be done where we need more resources potentially. And that's what the follow-up report will be associated with this this this series of reports right now back to uh GIC at the next meeting um or at the at the next report will be through GIC. Um but we're always actively trying to understand what the issues are at at that location and um I'd say through further investigation there we will make changes. Uh however, we're what what we're seeing early is that we're having a little bit more success in more quickly gaining compliance at the location. We're really struggling with maintaining consistency of of compliance uh specifically in the evening hours or weekends. Uh during the days, during the weeks, we're definitely seeing improvement for sure. Mondays were taking a little bit more time because we're seeing some establishment of of uh sidewalk blockages from weekend work or from from the weekends. Uh but as our team is there as a as we know in the report three times a day Monday through Friday we are seeing definitely some improvements but it's not um at a place where we're satisfied that we we're getting compliance regularly >> for sure. So that leads into my question my next question about the compliance is uh it notes about an 80% uh or that compliance has improved to 80%. But can you clarify what that compliance means? Does it just mean leaving in the moment? Are we tracking if returns are happening >> through the chair? It it does mean in the moment is when the officers are on site and they're u making verbal requests or issuing orders for individuals to um cease the obstruction of sidewalk. So that that's what that would reference is the is the compliance that we're g gaining at time. Um we are definitely recording information about reoccurrences. Um we're getting a lot of support from the Hamilton Police Service associated with um presence at the at the location. We've been successful having just our municipal law enforcement officers um handle a number of these issues without the police support. However, when we've asked for police support, they've been there 100% of the time we've requested. Um but yeah, we're still we're we're still working through a number of things there, but the compliance is, as I said, mentioned at the time. >> Yeah, that's great. Well, I just want to say again, thank you. It's been a big improvement over there already and excited to see more. >> Thank you very much. And I'll pass the chair to Vice Chair Braithweight. So this report seems to indicate what the problem is, but it seems not to offer a solution. And I'll just say from my perspective, there's a lot of frustration in the community. And I'll say just from myself about the ability to deliver a really clear response on this. What the report says without saying it is, but if we had staff on the evenings and weekends, we'd be able to maintain the stuff we do during the week, which would give us a better success. So there's no recommendation coming forward saying we need staff on evenings and weekends to this work. We have 24-hour security at city hall. We have 24-hour security at White, but the public is being asked to, I guess, shrug their soldiers in disbelief that we can't manage the situation. How can we explain to the public why we can't, why we're not recommending doing this more? Our bylaws say we should be able to allow pedestrians to use sidewalks, but we're not able to maintain the bylaws to say that pedestrians can use sidewalks. The reason I guess I'm so frustrated is because this is not the only situation or place this is happening downtown and everyone's coming to me asking so like I don't get it. You're saying we can't we literally can't use the sidewalk in our city. And I'm saying yeah that's the answer I'm being given because people are at work usually during the times you're doing these enforcement. When people want to use the sidewalk most is when they commute to work, when they commute back from work and when they're out in the community enjoying themselves. That's mostly the evenings and weekends. So, I'm I'm asking you, when are we going to get a clear path to this? And also, why aren't you making a recommendation to simply say this won't work unless we improve our staffing levels in this area? Or do you need me to make that motion? So, I'm just being blunt about it. >> Yeah, through the chair. Um, I certainly agree with a lot of the points that you're making there. The the purpose of this report was just to provide some information early on which was approximately three to four weeks worth of work just based on reporting timelines. Um which did identify a number of key pieces that were being successful and where we're still struggling. Again to your points, um we do plan on bringing back something a little certainly more wholesome and that potentially will have recommendations in it to that GIC meeting which was um the plan we had put in place with the last report that we had had. Um so we do believe that uh continued enforcement here may lead to a request for resourcing. Uh however, because the work that we're doing was so new and the change in enforcement was so new, we believe that we just need to ensure that we're spending the time necessary to understand the impacts of what our work is there and following the the new enhancement that we're putting forward then come back to committee with recommendations. >> Okay. Um, but can you plainly give me an answer for the public is what I'm looking for at this point in honesty. Like what am I saying to people who say to me, right, we have security 24/7 there. We have security at the YWCA. We have our own two sets of security. We have bylaw officers and we aren't able to keep a sidewalk clear. That is the just the basic thing I want to be able to tell people. I hear what you're saying and I get the challenge. This has been going on for three and a half years. So, I understand the pilot you've got in place now is new, but the problem is old and we've been trying to manage it in different ways for a long time now. It seems like what this report is saying is that really you're able to do this when you're there. When you're not there, you're not able to maintain this. That's what I'm understanding. So, what do I how do I explain to the public? Do I say to them, "Hey, um that's the issue that we don't have staff enough there to keep a consistent approach. um that we don't have a relationship with the security there to make that that they can call the police like what what is the missing piece here because again this is not a new problem it's just a new pilot >> through the chair so what we're doing is trying to figure out exactly what mechanisms work and what mechanisms don't work right so we're we're making adjustments to the work that we're doing to see if impacts from our changes can improve the situation that may um currently there. Uh we've done that, but we're continuing to do that. So, we're looking for any opportunity that we have. Um to to speak to the public specifically is that yes, it we are able to better maintain it during the hours of our presence and certainly we can't maintain it during the hours that we are not there. And if we had additional resourcing to maintain or maintain presence there, we probably would see more improvement. a a solution and complete clearance. It's hard to say just because of the situation. It's very complex. Um and there's more than just obstructions of sidewalks occurring at the location. Um it's it's a result of a lot of the other issues that are happening there. And um we're we're continuing to look for opportunity. There are security at city hall. There are security at White. However, they are limited in some of the enforcement opportunities and authorities they have outside of the properties that they're currently maintained or contracted to enforce. Um, but we do work with them and we do have information that is being collected from them uh related to work that they're doing to uh assist us where possible. Um, and the reporting that they're making to Hamilton Police Service, which they are doing uh as well as to our team. So, if I summarize what you're saying, yes, having people there in the evenings and weekends would fill a gap of some kind. Um, is what you're saying because I'm trying to get that just clearly on the record. Yes, that is the major barrier >> through the chair. Simply based on the work that we're doing right now, if we had additional staffing at the location, we would be able to maintain the site better. >> Thanks. That's really helpful and key and important. Um, a brief comment for me. I think the reason why I'm expressing frustration and doing it that way openly is because this is also partly related to the way that we're managing housing and homelessness in the city and we're not making a direct con connection to that. I just feel think like we're taking we're looking at this from a very practical or pragmatic or technical perspective and I get that and that makes sense and that's your job frankly as you work in a very technical landscape but there these are people and you know we're talking about a situation where we have conflicting groups of people who want to be able to walk down the sidewalk without having to walk into the roadway makes sense it's not very safe to walk into the roadway um this is really a prevalent issue on Jane Street North specifically because that area of the roadway is much more dangerous than this area of the roadway but There are other places in the city like York Boulevard, other kinds of spaces where if there's not an ability to walk on the sidewalk and people are having to to go in areas because they live downtown, they're going to have to go onto the roadway. And we're we're telling we're telling pedestrians that is what you must do. You must go onto the roadway with your child in a stroller in order to to walk around your neighborhood where you live in. And nobody else would put up with this in any part of the city. I'm telling you, if this was happening right now in downtown Ancaster, this would be an outrage. Just telling you that that's the truth of the matter. And so what I'm trying to balance here and understand here is yes, we we have created a problem because we've told the city has the council frankly has made a policy saying people have nowhere to go and they're not allowed to stay anywhere, stop anywhere on city property or private property and so they have to keep moving. And so as a result of that policy um now we're now we're between a rock and a hard place because if we dispossess people from um a sidewalk, they're going to go somewhere else, right? Onto another sidewalk. And then the question becomes what are we doing? This is a conversation we're not having. I don't know why we're having this conversation. This is a conversation I'm hoping will come forward in the next report. And if it means you working with folks in housing and homelessness services, if it means working with other folks and other divisions and roadway maintenance with regards to sidewalks, I don't know what it is. A holistic response to say this is why this is happening. This is why we can't fix it. This is what we're going to have to do to respond to it. Because continuing to tell people, well, you're just going to have to walk into the roadway with your stroller is not an answer for people. They can't accept that answer. And it makes sense. um it's not an answer. So, I'm thinking hopefully we'll get to something soon because this has been going on for again three and a half years in these locations. It's getting worse in some of the locations and people just want to understand what we're doing outside of the technicality of it all. They want to understand how we're how we're helping manage this conflict between um people who are trying to walk down a sidewalk and people who are trying to find a place to be because they have nowhere else to be. And I'm very compassionate for those individuals who are out there suffering. I'm also compassionate for the person who's trying to, you know, navigate the city in a stroller and, you know, being forced into the roadway. So, that's where we are right now and I think the public needs an answer. I'll leave it at that. Um, members Rafa, >> you addressed one of my questions, which is that the report states that um when a cleanup happens that other areas surrounding are just flooded like bike lanes and other sidewalks. So, my question was going to be about that, but you addressed it. So, I guess my question is and and if it's not if I'm not allowed to ask, that's okay. What does a a cleanup look like? What is the verbiage used with the residents when they're asked to leave? Are they given alternate areas to go to or places where they are able to be or are they just simply asked not to be where they are currently? >> Through the chair. So when we're at the site, our municipal law enforcement officers are at the site. So we are strictly at at the moment looking at what the bylaw violation is. and that would be a violation of a streets bylaw associated with obstruction um of a sidewalk. We'd be verbally issuing them an order to remove the obstruction and that's generally goods that they have there or their belongings and uh we would expect that they do so within a set time frame and it's it's with this specific location immediately that that takes place. If they don't a trespass notice formally is issued to them. uh if they don't uh adhere to that then we look for the assistance of the Hamilton Police Service and then once they have um removed from the obstruction from the area then we would have the support from the parks team uh to come and uh do cleanups of the location. >> Thanks very much. So on this report just going to give me a second to go back. It's our last information report. We have a mover in second order already. All those in favor of receiving this report. That's everyone. Thank you. I just want to pause briefly to say thanks to staff for getting all these reports back on time. So, this has been a new committee process for everybody. As those of you who were on this committee from day one know, when we first started here, it was we didn't have this many wonderful staff members here to talk to to get questions answered from. It was usually a couple of people that came and it was very uh sort of we'll ask you a question on the microphone. and we hope someone in the room can answer the question. And so this process has been really developing and evolving in terms of we've got motions, we're getting reports back, we're having a chance to analyze things, we're getting things taken off the um outstanding business list now, which is really great. So just thank you for getting all these reports back on time because it matters a lot to us to have this information because we don't meet very often and the time cycles for council don't actually line up very well with this committee. So it ends up being that we're caught between two and four months when we're able to get information. And so getting it back like this is really helpful. Allows us to actually bring forward motions at the next meeting. And so thank you on behalf of everybody here. I know everyone appreciates it very much. Um items for consideration. 8.1 is next. PED25198A flyers and posters on city infrastructure citywide. Can I have a mover in second or to put the report on the floor? Moved by Vice Chair Braithweight, seconded by member Edmonds. staff is here and we're not going to continue to go through the recommendations that might be there because these all have recommendations in them. So, we don't need you to go over those. They're right there on the front of the page. Any questions for staff about this and the recommendations that are in the report, >> Vice Chair Brie, go ahead. >> Uh mine mine's just more of a comment. So, I'm really happy to see this taking place again, which was exactly what I wanted to see when I brought this up. So, um, we did see success with the pilot pro program years and years ago with this. So, just wanted to thank, uh, staff for putting that back on the floor because I think it's important that we do as a part of cleanliness in downtown keep those like adhesive glue posters off and we'll be able to tackle those now. So, we really appreciate the work done on this for sure. >> Thank you. Not seeing other speakers. Their recommendations are before us. We have a mover and a seconder. All those by show of hands in favor of the recommendations. That's everyone. Thank you. So, we're now moving on to our next report here, which is improvement and lighting of fountain at Gore Park PW260008. This is item 8.2. And can I have a mover in a second to put this report on the floor? Moved by member Walsh. I'll second this one since I think that's how we did it on the motion. And I did have a question. I'm going to ask not seeing anybody else on the list. So, I'll hand the chair over to you, Vice Chair Braithweight. So, I think this is a good report. It seems like we've got some plans here to add things to the next budget. My only concern is we were hoping for winter lighting last year and what you're proposing is winter lighting in 2028. Um, and so is there a way we can accelerate that somehow? Does that just mean that it's an area rating question? Is it something we don't have in our budget to do? Because I I think that at this point wanting it for 2025, then getting it in 2020 just feels hard. Um so could could you answer that? >> Yeah, through the chair Cynthia Graham, director of environmental services, uh the challenge that we have um with um a lot of our programs is we just aren't funded for extra things. And so um as staff recommending it for a budget consideration to be implemented in a future year was the mechanism we had. I understand that the Wi-Fi is um being installed soon, which would help with the connectivity required for the lighting. So, if there was an alternative funding source, it's possible that it could be installed sooner than 2028. >> Okay. Because I mean, technically, it would be installed maybe 2027, but the point is like it would be active in sort of the 2027 2028 holiday season is more so what I meant. But yeah, I can maybe work with Emily offline and we can talk about bringing a motion forward about this to see if we can find an alternate funding source for it so we can get expedited and then maybe bring something back to the August meeting. My only point in this report that I wanted to bring up is something I think that just isn't quite the experience that downtowners have or the experience I've had. And so I really want to focus in on it because I think it does require a bit of a report back on this one item. So I don't want to take this off the OBL quite like quite yet for a portion of it because it says here the fountain system is generally functioning as designed with sufficient pressure from existing equipment and no immediate need for mechanical upgrades. I would challenge that statement. I would say that on the very very vast majority of days it is not functioning at the standard. uh at least one if not three of the I don't know what they're technically called but little spiggots that shoot the fountain water up can't can't achieve fountain water maximums and they sort of sadly sputter uh and this doesn't look very nice. So I'm wonder and that that I can visually that's been going on since my entire time in Hamilton. So, we can fix those, but it would require us doing something else is my understanding. But could you maybe report back on the costs of that and what it require to do that and keep it up to up to that level >> through the chair? Um, if I may, can I please invite uh, manager Rory Ducet to provide some context and information about why staff believe that it's functioning as intended and with the additional cleaning should see uh, improved performance. Uh, the alternative is we rip out the fountain and uh, completely reconstruct it. So um our hope is that the increased maintenance will ensure that the things that are functioning can continue to function and that we won't see the degradation in performance. But Rory is uh far more educated on that than I am. So I'm going to hand it over to him. >> Okay. If it's magically a cleaning thing, that's fine with me. I'm just saying that currently it's just not getting there. Yeah. Rory, >> thank you. Cynthia uh Rory De said, manager of parks uh through you chair. So I met with the uh city's contractor who handles our plumbing. Uh we've tested the pumps, we've tested the pressures, and everything is operating as it should. Um the the area that was lacking, I think, is the cleaning and the chlorination. So right now staff just dump chlorine into the fountain and it's not really done on a consistent basis. That would help keep it like think of a a functioning pool. Um, and that's where the recommendation here for the 12,500 would be an increased cleaning plus adding a chlorinator to the actual system itself that doesn't exist now. And we feel that these will help keep the um fountain cleaner, which the problem that we have now is the jets um as the counselor was referencing are very sensitive. So pine needles that say garbage gets in their leaves, it it gums up the system. So the additional cleaning plus the chlorination should help uh improve the function. And that's why we we reference it as a trial. Uh if we can make these changes to see it may avoid the expensive invasive uh bigger fix which we wouldn't rule out. Um so this would be a temporary thing to see if we can improve that meet back have that discussion and then if the bigger fix is needed uh at least then we can say we've tried at a more cost effective uh nature. So that was that was the point of uh the report and our recommendation to see if we can improve for 2026 which we haven't added this stuff yet which is why it may not be functioning to that level currently right now. But we think these these pieces will will help for this year. >> Okay, great. Let's get it off the OL. But the question is when will the report be coming back because it doesn't detail that in here. So I don't want to leave us in a weird spot where we don't know when the report back on the pilot will come >> through the chair. I hadn't um I hadn't added a report back to this committee with the results of the pilot. What I had done was uh include a recommendation to direct staff to include the budget ask. Uh but we can do a report back to this committee. Um, I would suggest I don't know if there's if there was an October meeting, if there would be a December meeting, that would probably be the appropriate time so that we have the full season's worth of data and then we can come back with um the information about whether it was um successful and what our recommendations are and that would align with um the budget process as well. >> Can I just confirm with the legislative coordinator? I think there's a November meeting. I don't remember if there's December one or not. There's a December meeting scheduled. >> That's nice. So December meeting it is. And if it's friendly to you, you could add that as number four. And they're just saying that you'll report back on the pilot program into the December meeting. Is that okay? >> Through the chair. That's that's fine. >> Just so we know how it went and if there's anything else we need to do or plan for >> through the chair. That's perfect. Thank you. >> Thank you. And so on that, I'll turn to member Walsh. >> Thank you uh through the chair. I do really appreciate the effort going into getting the fountain looking its best. I did just take want to take this opportunity for one last appeal for uplighting. I uh made sure to specifically mention uplighting in the motion. I do think it has a different ambiance than just pointing lights at the fountain and it really adds something special. Uh the report kind of made it seem like the only way to get up lighting was to fully demolish the fountain and build it in. Um, I know that there are lights in there now that have worked in the past for it. There was just some overheating issues due to them not being LED. So, I was just wanting to confirm that, uh, you have looked into retrofitting those and that that is truly not a viable option here. >> Through you, the chair, uh, absolutely uh, understand what you're asking. Um, the lighting that's in those those casings now is LED and it is overheating still. um when there's no water in the fountain. So that system's been designed to keep those lights at a certain temperature when it's operational. The problem is outside of the fountain season through let's say Christmas or or any of the the winter holidays, there's no ability to have those lights on because they overheat. Um and that was an issue. So that's why um when we were looking at our options to it, it was suggested that we do the the um pointed lights on the posts around it much like Niagara Falls does with their lighting on the falls um because it would be less intrusive again to remove those lighting and to rewire it. We would be cracking into the concrete uh foundation of the bowl and having to do some major restoration work. So this was kind of our our least intrusive way forward to to meet the goals that you were trying to achieve. Um, understand that you wanted the uplighting, but uh, that's a much larger capital project to do that >> for sure. I appreciate you double checking. Thank you. >> Okay, I don't see further questions here. So, on this report, we have a mover and seconder already. And so, we will move to receive the recommendations. All those in favor by show of hands. Thank you. And Emily and I will work on funding for the lighting. on to 8.3 PW260009A urban pest control information for Gore Park and we need a move in second or to put this report on the floor. Moved by member Moran, seconded by member Zarafa. Are there questions on this report? Member Walsh. Go ahead. >> More of a comment just that I really appreciate all of the work going into it. uh just a little frustrated with the timeline overall and just above and beyond this report. Seeing that as somewhat of an ongoing issue that we're facing in this subcommittee specifically that it does often seem like we do have bylaws on the books specifically aimed at addressing the problems that we're trying to fix, but that we just don't have the resources to be able to enforce those bylaws and that essentially is making them useless. So, I do think that we should be looking at that at some point, but it's a bigger bigger thing than we're able to tackle today. But thank you for all the work going into that uh area. Thank you. >> Looking around for other questions. Not seeing any. I'll throw myself on this list. I just want to get a bit more information. So, I know that what one of the delegates has said was trying to get this to happen as soon as possible with these other kinds of methods and talking about removing food sources, those kinds of things. Based on my reading of this report, what I understand is that we're heading in that direction and that you're going to report back on on a trial. Could you just be a bit more specific about what that looks like? I think I'm just personally confused a little bit about I think you're going to try the other methods. Um there was a method with respect to putting carbon dioxide in the rat tunnels for lack of a technical word for that and also some type of electrification. My guess where I was confused is when is when and how are the dentisticides going to be phased out? What's that look like? >> Through the chair uh Cynthia Graham, director of environmental services. So currently we don't have the funding uh available to be able to implement any of the alternative um pest control solutions. So the report recommends or direct staff to put forward a budget sheet as part of the um budget process in 2027 to try to secure funding to be able to do that um work. Our current contract doesn't include that. So it would be um a request for uh additional services through a procurement process with the additional funding. If we were successful in achieving that funding, then a report back on the success of that could be later in 2027 after sort of the active rat and park uh season is done. um into the fall uh early winter of 2027 if that was the desire and if the funding was approved. >> I see. So you're looking for alternative funding source on this one as well. Okay, that's fair. That makes sense. So what you're saying is you're going to carry on doing the rodenticides until such time as you can put a capital detail sheet in possibly for the upcoming budget unless you get funding otherwise and ahead of that. Okay, that's what I was trying to understand. It's my fault I read it and didn't understand that. So I really appreciate the clarity. We'll take the chair back. I don't see other questions on this. So on the recommendations that are in front of us, all those in favor by show of hands and that is everyone. And we're now going to go on to our last item of the agenda for today, which is 8.4 amendments to the outstanding business list. There's one that needs to stay on here. Unfortunately, I'm not completely remembering which one it is at this moment. Um so I'll turn to legislative coordinators to which one needs to remain on. >> E will remain on. plan for improving infrastructure in the BAS. >> Thank you. So apart from E, so A through D and F through J removing those for the outstanding businesses. I need a mover in a second to do so. Moved by member Walsh, seconded by Vice Chair Braithweight. Any comments or questions about the outstanding business list? It's always a very debate heavy section of the agenda. Not seeing anyone. All those in favor by show of hands. That's carried. There is no other business for today. The meeting for today is adjourned at 3:20. See you again here August 13th. Have a great day, everybody.