Sound check. One, two, three, 4. Sound check. One, two, three, 4. All right, good evening everyone. I think we have quorum for tonight's meeting. So, I'd like to call this meeting of the agriculture and rule affairs subcommittee to order. A reminder that electronic devices are to be switched to a non-audible function during committee meetings. Could I um have a mover and a seconder to approve this agenda as presented? Al and councelor Tavson. >> Al pain. Good catch. Are there any amendments to the agenda? Not seeing any. Uh all in favor of the agenda as presented. Any opposed? That's carried. Are there any declarations of interest? Hearing none, we'll carry on. We have minutes from September 22nd, 2025. Is there a mover and a seconder to adopt those minutes? Councelor Bey, anyone else? Gavin, thank you. Any discussion on the minutes? Kathy. >> Thank you. Yes. Good evening to all of us, especially all of who have come. Drew, what I want to comment, yes, our last meeting was concerning the storage in the city of Hamilton, and yes, it has to be looked at, I suppose, and was. But what I want to say, that's our last meeting. That's September of 2025. That's nine months ago. What happened to the meeting in the earlier part of the year? Thank you for addressing that. >> Yeah, I don't have necessarily an answer for that, Kathy. Just um meetings come up when there's agenda items put forward by council and and this was the first opportunity we had to have once. >> Well, we do have a substitute chair and we are supposed to have four meetings per year with the agricultural and rural advisory committee and I'm just surprised and sad that nine months went past and now this is the next meeting. Just my opinion. Thank you. Thank you. >> Any other discussion on the minutes? Seeing [snorts] none, all in favor of approving the minutes. Any opposed? It's carried. Okay. Items for information. 7.1 the city of Hamilton uh community improvement plan feasibility study project introduction. [clears throat] I'm going to turn turn it over to Tyson uh business development consultant uh to make the presentation. >> Great. Thank you, Drew. And uh through the chair again, thank you everybody for taking the time today to meet. Uh I have Marilyn Cameron here through JL Richards who is one of our consultants that we've brought on board to uh to lead this work. And again, as Drew mentioned, this is a feasibility study for an agricultural CIP or a community improvement plan within the city of Hamilton. Uh so this project or feasibility study comes from uh the economic development action plan from 2021 to 2025. Specifically, action item number 33, which is study the feasibility of establishing an agriculture, agra food, and rural community improvement plan. So we uh were moving forward this year as we actually received uh funding through the rural Ontario development fund through the province for this project and that's what allowed us to uh to prioritize and and move forward with this work this uh this year. Uh so without further ado, I'll pass it over to Marilyn who will be going through a bit of a presentation, introducing the project, the objectives of the the study as well as some discussions questions for the group here as it relates to uh priorities and and things we should be aware of during the project as well as some initial ideas when it comes to the kind of initiatives and projects uh a future agricultural community improvement plan would potentially fund through the city. Uh so with that I'll pass it over to Marilyn to uh lead the presentation as well as to lead the the discussion following that. >> Great. Thank you Tyson and and thank you to the subcommittee. I'll just check that you can hear me. All right. >> Sounds great. >> Great. Thank you. Appreciate it. And then next I will share my screen. Okay. So, if everybody can see that, we'll get started. Um, so as as Tyson mentioned, my name is Marilyn Cameron and I'm a planner with JL Richardson Associates. >> Marilyn, we can't see a screen if we're supposed to see it. >> Thank you for letting me know. How about now? >> Yep. Much better. >> There we go. Great. Uh, yes. So, like I said, I'm a planner with JL Richardson Associates. We're a planning, engineering, and architecture firm uh across the province, but uh I'm based out of our G office. Um and we're very excited to be presenting um and and working with the city on this project. Uh so, I'm excited to present to you today to to give you a bit of an introduction, uh like Tyson said, an overview of what the project will be and some of our initial questions. Uh and then uh at the end I have an agenda. Let's see if we can see it. Um at the end I'm I'm here to answer any questions and uh have a few discussion questions for you as well. So at a high level we'll go through what a CIP is, what this project specifically looks like and the engagement plan um that we have for the next few months uh as well as immediate next steps. So, uh, just in case any of you are unfamiliar with a community improvement plan, which, uh, you'll see abbreviated to CIP throughout this presentation, it's a municipal planning tool. It's authorized under the municipal act, and it allows for community improvement, um, a defined term, uh, through incentives and financial programs. and it's actually one of very few ways that municipalities can provide direct funds to a land owner to create reinvestment that way. Uh so it typically comes in the form of grants or loans or through rebates and I'll go over the three most common types of those in just a few minutes. Um it also applies to a specified project area. So very often across many municipalities, they'll apply that to the entire municipality. Um but in some cases when there's a specific target for the CIP, it might be applied to a specific part of town. Often that's like a particular settlement area, a downtown core, a corridor, or in this case it would be, you know, the rural or agricultural area. And so CIPs aren't new to the city. Uh you've got quite a bit of experience with them. Uh there's, you know, most recently housing um has been the focus of a recent CIP and uh your erase CIP is is also award-winning. Uh so this isn't new for the city, but what would be new for this project is a focus specifically on the agricultural sector and the rural area. So uh there are lots of things that fit under the definition for community improvement. Uh we typically historically these have been for reuse uh or rehabilitation of buildings or lands uh you know such as remediation of brownfield sites. More recently they've been become very popular for looking at affordable or attainable housing projects. Uh they have they have always been to support businesses and business expansion uh such as like conversion or adaptive reuse or uh very commonly facade and signage and those really superficial but important visual cues of investment in a certain area. Um they've uh very recently I'd say um been focused on things like onfarmm business growth, value added and agurism which is the focus of this one of course. And then um energy efficiency, accessibility, those are some al some other newer um areas where community improvement has been has um they've been added sort of uh sorry to the definition of of what is uh considered community improvement under uh this type of program. Uh but the the big thing to keep in mind is that the goal of all of these types of improvement are to create some kind of momentum to create new economic growth, revitalize or or um you know reinvest in a particular area and see those kinds of outcomes. And on the right of this slide uh we can see a few examples of fairly recent CIPs in the area. So there's one from Hamilton shown there. grants uh is is one of the most recent. It was just adopted earlier this year. Uh and that one is is a specific one for rural prosperity as well. So uh you're catching on to to a trend here. It's a really focus in this area. Uh the other one at the bottom right, it's hard to see where it's from there, but that one's King Township, and this one's from 2018, and they recently um re uh renewed and reviewed it in uh 2021. So, so another example of one that focuses primarily on their rural areas. Um, but then Halton Hills and Norfol County are examples of CIPs that apply to the whole municipality and then have a particular focus uh for one or two incentives that apply to agriculture. So, as I mentioned, there's a few different ways that a CIP can work. Um, most commonly it's in the form of grants. These are direct funds that are released at the stage where the work has been completed and and folks have receipts or or invoices to submit and then the grant is administered that way. They are typically done at a 50% matching um and then there will be a specification about what costs are considered eligible and which are not. And then the range of the that that grants come in um is quite varied. So it could be anything from, you know, $500 to $1,000 up to 25 occasionally you see even higher for a specific incentive and they can apply to pretty much anything. So um as I said they're the most common where we often see them are are for smaller things like facade or signage. Um but they are also very popular for uh major renovations uh reuse or adaptive conversion. Um, and then heritage restoration or some of those bigger projects that are slightly less visible as well. And then the next main Oh, I'll also add that loans are much less common, but a forgivable loan or um that kind of model is also occasionally done as well. And then the next uh type are fee waivers. So this would be most commonly for planning act applications or building permits, maybe even a septic permit. um and it refunds the cost of those fees after the fact just to help with with the upstart of that project. And then the last type are tax increment grants. So uh these take place where the project is completed, the first uh you know new set of taxes um come out and then a refund is applied. And so typically this is done through an agreement at the outset of the project which predicts the or you know does a best estimate of what the municipal levies will increase uh as a result of that improvement. And these are typically done um over a five or a 10year uh period where maybe 100% or 80% of that incremental increase in the the municipal levy um is calculated and then declines annually um down to zero. And so the goal here is really to help folks who might be wanting to take on much larger projects but are inhibited by the upfront costs to start the project or start you know start the business expansion and then the tax change the increased taxes that would come with that as well. So it's it eases that process for them with the goal that that additional revenue is coming in by the time that they're back at paying 100% of that increased tax rate. So, um, the project that we're looking at now, Tyson gave a a good overview of it for you, but essentially the CIP, um, will happen at a later phase. Right now, we're just looking at the background feasibility of it. So, we're going to be conducting a background study that looks at what the value of an agriculture CIP would be for the city. And we're going to be uh covering you know a wide scope here looking at the legislative and policy framework at the provincial level but then also at the local level. We'll be taking a look at CIPs from other municipalities some case examples. We'll be engaging with the agriculture and agra business community very critically to get a sense of what would be uh the best way to tailor a CIP for Hamilton. And then through that engagement, we'll be looking for what those local priorities, gaps, and existing barriers are. Because of that work, we'll be able to develop uh possible incentives for the CIP program and make recommendations to um for how to allocate that um and and how to implement as well. And then at that point we'll we'll hand off and really you know pass the baton on to the city to uh run with the creation and implementation of the CIP. Um so that's that's the goals and objectives of this project and throughout we're going to be looking at a series of research questions. So uh these include challenges, barriers that folks are facing specifically looking at value added and expansion of their farm businesses. Um what solutions that they've tried would like to try or have seen done elsewhere. And we'll spend a you know a bit of effort looking at the specific incentives that would make a difference for Hamilton farmers but while keeping things sort of big picture as well. And then we'll also be looking at what else the city could be doing to support that value added growth. Um, you know, and it's it's important to note that these questions are, you know, at times going to be narrow to focus specifically on the CIP, but at other times we'll we'll be quite flexible and keep them quite big picture to help understand that, you know, that that comprehensive view of how the city can um use a CIP uh to get at some of the bigger challenges. It's important to keep in mind that uh while the the CIP is the tool and the scope of this of this project, uh some of these challenges are quite large and complex uh you know messy wicked problems we might call them um that that farmers are facing. And so we're going to try to get a sense of what that broader picture is to be able to to find the best um way to apply a CIP in terms of supporting farmers and solving those those big challenges. So we'll take the project through five phases. We are currently in phase one um and we're looking at uh we we've kicked it off with staff and we're kicking it off with the subcommittee with you all tonight. Um, as we do, I'm hoping to get a bit of your feedback on our work plan and engagement plan so that we can refine those. Um, and tonight's also sort of our kickoff to announce the project very publicly at this stage. We've also simultaneously started phase two, so background and best practice review are ongoing. Um, and then from here, we're we're looking to um, like I said, refine our engagement plan with your feedback this evening and really get started consulting with um, all of our stakeholders who I'll go over um, that list in just a moment. From engagement, we'll be moving on to phase four, which includes draft recommendations. Um and then phase four as well will also involve going back and talking further with folks to get um a sense of you know to test to test these initial ideas, validate them and uh make some refinements. That will result in a final background report in phase five um which will summarize all of the work to date and uh really set staff up for success to run with uh creation of a CIP project. um after that fact. So engagement is a really critical part of um our project and the the intent of that is really just to make sure that this is these recommendations are actually effective. So uh we want to gain a really deep understanding of what challenges um and opportunities farmers are facing, what's what's holding them back from doing these types of investments on their farm. Um, we want to make sure as well that all stakeholders with interest in this CIP are informed. So that might include folks who maybe have never taken an interest this in in this before. Um, you know, you folks know that the the Aggra food system broadly impacts everyone whether or not they are aware of it. Um and so we want to make sure that all folks who um will be impacted by that system have some kind of particip you know opportunity to participate and then uh similarly we want to raise awareness. So, uh, part of the project, um, will involve just general promotion to make sure that folks are aware of it. Um, and, um, whether folks want to participate or not, they're recognizing the commitment that the city's making, um, to look into this project and to to really champion this sector. So, uh, we've for the sake of, uh, tonight's presentation really simplified our stakeholder groups into five categories for you here. Of course, most obvious um are farmers and aggra business owners. These folks hold that key expertise that we need to make sure that this is a really tailored project and a tailored CIP. Um and then working with this group will also help build momentum and those future uh applicants who become the future champions and uh you know build the a sector that uh we are hoping that this will will really catalyze and then with that come farm associations and organizations. So of course these are the associations that have existing relationships with farmers and are the are the place where that this knowledge is shared and social um networks and supports are offered. Um and so uh we can tap into that expertise. They can also provide oftent times a more regional perspective. Um and then through them we're also hoping to leverage their membership uh to spread the word. And then we'll also be talking to uh industry representatives. So, like I said, we've started phase two, which includes interviews with um folks who are, you know, at the provincial or regional level um and and experts in this area. So, for example, we've we've spoken so far with uh reps from the Ministry of Rural Affairs um with with Councelor Tison um and we'll be holding similar meetings again this week and and ongoing. Um and then uh internal stakeholders are key as well. So uh this is our first meeting of course with uh the subcommittee and you will be our our key decision makers throughout this project but we also want to make sure that we are engaging with staff who will be implementing it. Um and you know the counselors whose uh constituents will be the intended audience. Um and so um that's a key stakeholder group as well and we'll make sure that we're communicating back to you regularly. Um, and then finally, last but not least, uh, is the general public. So, uh, like I mentioned, we're aware that they have interest in this project, whether they might be aware or not. So, we want to make sure that the word is out there as much as as possible and that there's there's awareness uh, growing for the project and um, ways that folks can be supporting their local uh, businesses. So um we also have a range of engagement activities and one of the key components of our engagement plan was to ensure that there were lots of ways for folks to participate. Um one of our key audience members um of course are farmers and this is their busiest season and so we are about to go into engagement um at kind of an un ideal time. So, we want to make sure that there are lots of ways to engage and that we are trying to meet folks uh where they're already engaging and participating in community as much as possible. Uh so, if any of you aren't visual uh folks, there's a list on the next slide as well of these activities, but um generally just I'll I'll go over a few of them at a high level. So, in terms of general project promotion, there will be a very simple web page hosted on the city um the invest in Hamilton website about the project that will have contact information and and ways for folks to get in touch. General feedback will be welcome at any time um whether that's through this subcommittee, through direct email, phone um or attending any of these events um that's always welcome. will be attending a a community event which we've we've called this activity a community popup. Um, basically hoping to get involved with an existing event where folks will be We know that lots of the farm community will already be attending and uh we'll set up a booth, have activities, have folks um participate, share their input, ask questions, and do kind of a more of a street team um you know, if you can say that on farm uh in in the community setting. Whoops. And then uh we'll be hosting two open houses as well. So um the idea is that one of these would be in sort of the Flamborough Ancaster area and the other one in more of a Glenn Brook Stony Creek type area. Um to and and staggering these throughout the summer. So trying to make sure that we cover both geography but then also convenience in terms of timing. Um, and these will be fairly informal open houses with workshop activities to try to get folks discussing and and get different perspectives shared. And then like I said, we've started our key industry informant meetings. So these are interviews with folks with a level of expertise on the subject. Um we are also hoping to present to the Hamilton Wentworth Federation of Agriculture um following this um to get their input and and their feedback will be um you know requested or um welcome throughout the entire project. Um and then your feedback your feedback is critical as well. So this evening we have discussion questions but at any point throughout this project we would you know really love for you to get get involved attend events um spread the word through your own networks um and you know p provide as much input as you would like to for this uh then we'll also be conducting stakeholder interviews. So slightly later in the project when we have more refined recommendations, we're going to be going back out to the farm community and having brief conversations to really test the initial recommendations and ideas. And then last but not least, city staff feedback as well. We want to make sure that this is just as applicable to the community it's trying to serve as it is implementable by those who will have to do it. So, we want to make sure that city staff who will be implementing um and administering the CIP are involved um as well to get their input. So, moving on to a very brief timeline and I will add that this uh schedule here includes only the engagement activities or communications um and not all of the tasks. So, it's a bit abbreviated. Uh but we're current we currently find ourselves um there you are at the presentation to subcommittee on the 22nd. Uh we're hoping to present to the Federation of Agriculture soon um but are are absolutely flexible on that and uh we are conducting the key industry informant interviews uh currently. We are looking to host the open houses in early July and early to mid August, but I would love your feedback on that this evening on whether you think those are appropriate timings or if there's something really obvious we're missing there. The community popup we are hoping to host um mid July um if we are able to attend a farm crawl or um that's already ongoing or something else that's happening around that time. So, for example, a farmers market event. Um, and then stakeholder interviews, like I mentioned, will be happening throughout July and early August. Uh, the you can expect the draft recommendations to come back to you through a presentation like this at the end or late August. Um, and then that's with the idea being that your feedback and what we hear from some of the stakeholder interviews will refine those ideas further so that that final presentation to you of the final recommendations comes um towards the end of September if not sooner and well before the election. Uh, after that date though, there will be a few finalization tasks including a handoff to uh staff which um, you know, may happen later. um in the fall depending on scheduling. So that's the timeline at a very high level. Um and uh in terms of immediate next steps, I have some discussion questions for you uh just after this where I'm hoping to gather a bit of your feedback. Um and based on that, we'll be refining that work plan and getting started scheduling um some of our bigger events. We'll be continuing the background review um including interviews and we'll also be continuing engagement. So um city uh staff um have a flyer and then uh the website uh so that promotion can start getting out there. Um and then we hope to you know schedule a presentation with the Federation of Agriculture uh fairly soon and those July engagement activities as well. So, uh, I'm happy to pause here and take a minute for any questions, but, um, these are a series of, uh, questions that I have for you folks, uh, because we'd really like to get your feedback and input before we proceed. Um, and, uh, so I'll maybe leave this slide up, but turn the floor back over to the chair in case there are any questions about the content or the project before we continue. >> Thank you. Any questions so far? >> Councelor Clark has his hand. >> Oh, I'll go with Councelor Beatty first and then Council Clark. >> Oh, okay. Councelor Clark, go ahead. >> Catch me in the middle of a chocolate chip cookie that I'm not sharing with you guys. Um, just a couple of questions if I may share. Um, in the last eight years or so, I have been asking for some time, some kind of program that would assist farmers in the development of greenhouse technology on their farms. and Upper Stony Creek. The lands up there uh are good agricultural lands, but there are some that are um not as good as they could be and green houses would really provide an opportunity for farmers to grow year round. Would that be something that could be included in this type of sea? >> Thank you for the question. through you chair. I assume it's uh on me to answer. Uh and yeah, that definitely could be. Um so, uh you know, not having looked too deeply into the current official plan or zoning policies at this point, um on prime agricultural land, green houses are permitted as of right. So, I'm going to safely assume that um that that could be and things like new technologies, robotics, um you know, those are those types of um innovations are something that uh a couple of municipalities have included in CIPs already. So, I'm thinking of the county of Bruce has an innovation grant um to try to incentivize uptake of of different types of technologies that that would be quite similar to that. Um, so it would basically be a capital type of grant for that type of infrastructure that they may not have on the farm currently. >> Yeah. Through you, chair. Um, it could be it could look like um capital like building land improvements. It could look like um yeah, infrastructure. It could be things like um uh even professional expertise support. So so hiring um uh there's there's sort of a broad range of ways that it could be applied. So we'd be interested to hear, you know, from from the farmers like what sorts of interest they have in that kind of thing. >> Uh last question if I may, Chair, just just with your your experience. Um Marilyn, did you find that other municipalities who have already implemented such programs there there were caps in the program? In other words, there was a value a maxed out value that you could attain as a grant. How did they handle that? Do you know? >> Yes. So um because the sorry through you chair um because the uh majority of grants come through uh direct funds. So the you know the expense line versus the uh the revenue line for council. There is a cap set aside for the CIP with every budget with every annual budget. Um, and then within that there are usually limits on terms of the number of grants that one applicant could apply for. And then there's typically a dollar value limit that one land owner or prop like per property um that would apply. And so it might be that there's a cap for a particular incentive. Um or there could be that they might be able to apply for multiple incentives and there's a cap at which that property, you know, maxes out the amount they're eligible for within, you know, what the duration or or lifetime of the CIP or maybe it's annually. Um there's a few different ways that that could go. >> Uh thank you, Chair. I look forward to the consultations. I and I'm hoping beyond hope that this is something that the city will eventually um take up as policy. [snorts] Um we won't know until we actually have the policy in place be to see whether or not farmers are wanting to participate in such a program but given all the financial constraints for farmers it would make sense to me. Thank you very much chair. >> Thank you councelor Bey. >> Thank you chair and through you. Um, first I just wanted to say that it's really nice to see the rod funding put to use right away. And this is the first time that Hamilton's been eligible for rod funding and for this to land right into a program immediately that will have net benefit for the broader farming community is really really exciting. I know councelor Tatison and myself were at the rural Ontario Municipal Association conference in January. We spoke with the minister uh Lisa Thompson and thanked her. And we've also uh tried to make some inroads on expanding the program, make it more eligible to more parts of the city of Hamilton. We provided some of the leg work for their ministry to be able to advance that. So hopefully this is just the beginning of more and more opportunities. Um so my hats off to uh to Tyson and the ECD group and to Marilyn as a consultant here. It's really really exciting to see. Um I don't necessarily have too many questions. mostly just a high a couple high level comments that I could offer you. Marilyn, um the area that I represent has a a rather small agricultural section, but it's um very well defined and um still very productive and by and large we deal in the tender fruit and uh grape and wine production. Um, some of those farms have fallen off uh in current years and gone into cash crop production, but the land um underneath that, the soil conditions still exist that they could be put back into service for tender fruit and and grape and wine production really at any time. It just the economics have to make sense. And so a program like this could lead to some of those properties coming back on stream in in a more productive way which I think is exciting. Um we we deal as I said in tender fruit and grape and wine which leads itself to value added and aggra tourism opportunities. That's going to be the bulk of the excitement I think in the in the area that I represent. I'd be very very happy to uh help find connections with some of the producers in my area. Uh Tyson and I have gone out and met with a couple of them. I' I'd really like to uh to to offer that any assistance that I can add to line those up. I think that's where the future is and whether any it applies beyond just what I've made note of in terms of tender fruit and grape and wine. all farm um operations will benefit from value ad and from onfarmm production capabilities in agra tourism. Uh and I think that that's going to be an exciting opportunity. Um over and above I think that there's also value in in what councelor Clark has stated in the technological advances. So there's just a myriad of opportunities here. It would be nice to try to uh capture as much of that as possible uh when this comes forward. and um you know let me know how I might be able to to assist your office and I'd be very very happy to participate in any way possible. So thank you for this. >> Thanks counselor. Any other comments on the presentation? Kathy, [laughter] >> thank you Drew. I would suggest that the city committee that's going to put forward this plan does a tiny bit of homework before they do. And my comments go around what's currently the farming situation throughout Canada. First of all, I think it's best that you know the average age of the farmer in Flamborough Clanbrook anywhere else around this city. The average age a while back was 52. That's not youth by a long stretch. It would help you to know just how enthusiastic someone 55, 60, 65, 70 would jump into any of these programs at the cost especially. Secondly, while you're doing that, look at just how many young farmers you do have in this rural part of the city of Hamilton. Look how many 35 or 40 year olds have volunteered for mom and dad and they've taken the dairy farm, whatever, over and they're really happy and so are their wives because they don't dare divorce under family law. Also, I do want to Drew, you're smiling. [laughter] Treat Heather very well. Another point is the workload that the average farmer, every one of us here has already. So, if you're already getting up at 5 for dairy farming, you're already working from 5 to 10 at night. Do you really want to take on something like green houses, cattle, pork back in the new barn, etc., etc.? The workload is tremendous in a farming family, not just for the farmer himself, but for his wife and his children. >> [snorts] >> I also think this group should look at how many farms in the city are rented or sharecropped whereby they haven't got a straightforward single owner who would make the decision who could sign the loan who would who would be there behind the loan etc etc. So, you know what? Those are the main points I put down. You might think of more yourself, but you have to research what you've already got. I think before you jump into this, mainly because of the cost of everything that a farmer now looks at when he buys new. I hope you're aware that a really nice tractor for a 200 or 500 acre farm can easily be 350 to $450,000. I hope you already know that a nice new combine only the best farmer can afford them because they start about $500,000 and can be as much as a million with a couple of headers. I'm just cautioning a slight bit. Thank you, Drew. >> Thank you. I'll maybe just add my uh two cents here for a quick second and make a couple of points. The first is around uh I think the issue of farming and aggra business in the city are different and should be looked at with two different lenses. U you know you don't need to have aggra business across rural Hamilton. aggra business can operate anywhere in Hamilton and they do currently when we talk about food processing when we talk about uh grain export terminals fertilizer import uh those types of things they're they're critical infrastructure for what farmers do not only here in Hamilton but across southwestern Ontario and I think supporting those businesses across the city especially when it comes to new food processing development um you know new infrastructure whether it's around fertilizer production or uh what have you, those can have a big impact uh on the farm directly even though you're not actually supporting the farmer directly. And then of course the issue of uh of the farm, the farmer uh the land is is an important aspect of this as well. And I think um you know doing the research, asking the questions and and making sure we're finding ways to support farm businesses right across the city is uh is very valuable too. The second thing I just point out uh is that uh there's there's HWFA representatives in this room. You mentioned it. Um we will look to uh opportunity to engage the committee as as a whole. But on September 29th, we're planning to host an event uh at Summit Station uh more of a meet and greet the candidates type of night. and that that might be a good opportunity to have some of this uh as a a leading discussion uh for that type of event. I'll just put that on your radar. >> Any other uh comments or questions before we get into the >> Oh, sorry, Marilyn. Go ahead. >> Through you, chair. I just wanted to say thank you for um all all of the um members comments. appreciate that >> for sure. Did you want to walk through some of these questions or what were you thinking >> uh through you your preference? I'd be happy to um uh you know verbalize them and and let you folks discuss or um if if you like you could just pick and choose any that you're interested in answering. So, just so I'm clear, are you looking for answers or you looking for feedback on the discussion questions, answers to the question? >> Yeah, >> both. Yeah. Um, answers to the questions. But these are, you know, not unlike the questions that we will be taking out to the community. So, if you think there's a question that's missing or you don't like the phrasing, I I'm open to that feedback as well. >> Okay. Any feedback on the questions themselves here? Kathy >> Drew, I did miss one other point. I wanted to point out just how seriously and compassionately and hardworking farmers are with community assistance, events, projects already the work they do to put on three different fairs and caster Ben Brookton. the work that they do to put on something like a farm breakfast which just occurred on the 13th of June and there's so much more they contribute to already in the community which in fact again is a huge pile of work and the other thing Drew I'd like to point out is that back in August of 2003 the city of Hamilton with the agricultural econ economic impact and development study hired the plan from Planscape of Brent Bracebridge, Ontario. And we have no end of excellent information, which is all out of date at this point, but if the city really wanted to know about farming again, here's a firm that will tell you everything. Thanks, Drew. >> Thank you. Uh, back to the questions. Anyone have any input? Gavin, I >> think perhaps not so much answers to the questions, but uh who should be or who you should be seeking to get input for these questions. And to me, the the best expertise are people who've already done this uh these these uh things like successful farm uh businesses like the the farmgate sales and the extra processing because they they're aware of all the the frustrations and the barriers they had to go through and they probably wanted to do uh expand their operations. So they they can give you better feedback than just the the general population. So try try to seek those people out. I maybe they don't want to talk to you because they've already done it and they maybe they don't think they've got all they need but u that's my my suggestion anyway >> through you chair thank you I appreciate that uh comment and it's one we've we heard recently from a counselor as well and so uh we we do plan to be including them in engagement and and hope that we'll um encounter them in some of the community activities as well. >> Thanks. And I think just to to Gavin's point there, the the last question um relating to the federation, I think that's where we can be of some help in trying to identify some of those uh you know leading candidates to provide some of this information. [snorts] >> Mark, yeah, >> just uh Marilyn, just one last point. Are you going to be engaging with the other counselors that represent the rural areas? >> Thank you. Through you, chair. Uh yes, we we would be happy to we'd really appreciate their input. Um and uh so at some uh stage throughout the project, uh we'll be reaching out. Um and I I'll I'll just add, you know, through this committee, but indirectly as well. We'd like to keep you informed throughout the project. >> Okay. Thanks. I'd just like to note that we do have a former minister of agriculture in the room and is a current counselor and I think he would have lots to share with his experiences. Thanks >> through your chair. If I may ask a follow-up question that isn't on here. Um, you know, and just thinking of um the recent comment that you farmers are already so busy, especially this time of year. Um, we're looking to try to minimize the level of effort needed to participate through this. Um, so, you know, like I mentioned, we're hoping to capitalize on some of those existing events that they already work very hard to participate in. Um but two so so if if there are other events uh so you know the the Hamilton Wentworth Federation of Agriculture meeting that you mentioned I've made a note of but if there are other events this summer that you think would be particularly effective that we should be attending rather than hosting a new event I'd appreciate your opinions on that as well and apologies for my cat if you can hear him. Thanks. Well, cats aren't the problem. It's cows that get loud. So, uh, no, thanks for that. And, uh, certainly I think we'll keep our ears open for other events and look for other ways to, uh, provide input into this process. I think it's valuable to, uh, to do that. And, uh, likewise, I think to my earlier comment, if there are opportunities to engage better with that aggra business community, I think that would be really valuable as well at some of their events, too. Anything else from Maryland? Okay. Well, appreciate the information and uh your work on this to date and look forward to uh providing some input in the future and uh the results coming forward. >> Fantastic. Thank you all for your comments and have a great evening. >> Thanks. I'll just throw it back to Tyson. [snorts] >> No, thanks Drew and through you the chair. We can look to share these questions with the committee at large here following tonight's meeting. That way if there are any specific comments or feedback that any member of the committee has, uh they're more than happy to email that back to myself directly to Marilyn or uh through Carrie. So we'll make sure at some point tomorrow we'll send out these questions so everyone that can have and and provide any feedback that they may think of today or throughout the the coming weeks. That's great. Thanks for that. Okay, if there's no other discussion, can I get a mover and a seconder to receive item 7.1? Councelor Tatterson and councelor McMe. Uh, all in favor? Any opposed? It's carried. [clears throat] All right, we're going to go to item 7.2, two, investigation of renewable energy generation as a secondary use to agricultural operations. And I think we have Scott Turble with us, uh, to provide the committee with his presentation. Welcome, Scott. >> Thank you, uh, chair. Just confirming that you can hear me and see, uh, the presentation. >> We can do both. Thank you. >> Great. All right. So, uh, good evening, chair and members of the, uh, committee. My name is Scott Turble. I'm a planner uh in the sustainable community section of the planning division. I'm also joined uh tonight by Alana Fulford, supervisor zoning bylaw reform. Um so we're here today to introduce some work that staff are starting related to renewable energy generation in the rural area. uh council has asked staff to investigate policy and zoning options for renewable energy generation as a secondary use to agricultural operations. Uh so we're still in the early stages of this review. Uh but wanted to start the conversation and get the committee's advice and perspective as we start to move into this policy work. So to start I wanted to provide a bit of broader context on energy demand in Ontario. Um the province is forecasting that electricity demand will grow by 75% by 2050. That growth is being driven by factors such as population growth uh electrification and the retirement of existing electricity infrastructure. One of the main ways the province is responding to that demand is by launching a series of energy procurements focused on large-scale energy generation. Uh for those larger procurements, applicants are required to obtain municipal support before submitting a bid. Um so the city has adopted a protocol to review requests for municipal support which includes requirements for community engagement, staff review and consideration by planning committee and council. Uh but for tonight's discussion, the important thing to note is that these larger procurements do not allow groundmounted solar projects in prime agricultural areas. Um but that restriction is is specific to that provincial procurement process and is not a general land use rule that applies to every solar project in Ontario. Uh so for example, smaller scale renewable energy projects including solar may still come forward in prime agricultural areas through private property owners working directly with local utilities such as Electra or Hydro1. So, a a key piece of context for renewable energy policy in Ontario is the former Green Energy Act. As the committee may recall, the Green Energy Act removed renewable energy projects from municipal land use control. So, in practical terms, that meant municipalities had very limited ability to regulate where those projects were located through official plans and zoning bylaws. Uh because of that many municipal planning documents did not develop detailed policies for renewable energy sighting uh with the assumption at the time that those projects were largely being dealt with through a separate provincial approvals process. Uh that changed when the green energy act was repealed in 2018. Municipalities can now establish policies and zoning regulations for uh renewable energy projects just as they would for other land uses. Uh at the same time, the provincial planning statement directs municipalities to provide opportunities for the development of energy supply including renewable energy and it identifies energy generation as an example of an onfarmm diversified use. So the provincial direction is really uh twofold. Municipalities are expected to create opportunities for energy supply. Uh but municipalities also need to make sure that agricultural land and operations are protected. With that provincial context in mind, we can turn to Hamilton's own planning documents. Uh the rural Hamilton official plan policies still reflect the former green energy act in so far as they support renewable energy across all land use designations provided they are consistent with the other policies of the official plan and the zoning bylaw. However, when we look at the land use designations in the rural area, renewable energy is not identified as a permitted use. So on the one hand the official plan contains broad support for renewable energy across designations. On the other uh the specific designations do not clearly identify where and how renewable energy generation should be permitted in the rural area. So this is the gap staff are looking at through this review specifically as it relates to renewable energy as a secondary use. Turning to the city's zoning bylaw, uh, renewable energy generation is generally captured under the definition of private power generation. Right now, private power generation is not permitted in the city's rural zones. There are some exceptions like utility infrastructure and rooftop solar, but for a property owner looking to install a renewable energy facility as a secondary use to their farm operation, uh the zoning bylaw does not currently permit that in the rural area. So, this brings us to a recent council motion. uh council has directed staff to investigate policy and zoning options to permit renewable energy generation facilities that are secondary to agricultural operations. The staff have been asked to look at definitions and permissions as well as uh specific regulatory controls such as setbacks uh height limits, lot coverage and other performance standards. At this uh early stage, staff are looking broadly at the type of renewable energy projects that could potentially be secondary to an agricultural operation. Solar is probably the most familiar. Solar panels can either be ground mounted or or mounted on a building. Uh wind turbines are another example. They can vary in size depending on power output. So they may be uh a smaller scale when being considered as a secondary use. Bio energy is also uh relevant uh in the agricultural context. One example would be uh anorobic uh digtor which can use organic material such as crop residue to produce bio gas which can then be used to generate electricity. uh micro hydrogeneration may also be possible although it appears to be less common and and very sightsp specific. Um these technologies can also be used in different ways. Some projects may simply offset the electricity needs of the farm operation. Others may offset on-site demand and sell excess electricity back to the grid. Uh, a third category would be projects that only generate electricity for sale back to the grid. However, these would likely be the larger utility scale projects I mentioned earlier and likely not treated as secondary to an agricultural use. So, with that background, uh, we wanted to use the rest of the time for some discussion and and questions. We've included a handful of questions on the slide to help guide the conversation which I'll walk through briefly and then we can open it up for discussion and and questions. So the first question is uh looking uh for feedback on what types of renewable energy generation may be appropriate in prime agricultural areas. So any feedback you may have on specific technology such as wind or solar or bio energy. Uh we're also looking for feedback on how renewable energy generation could be accommodated while still protecting agricultural land and allowing farm operations to continue as the main use of the property. Um, another question we're considering is whether the OMAFRA guidelines for onfarmm diversified uses are an appropriate guide for renewable energy or whether it needs a more specific approach. Um, more broadly, we're interested in any risks or opportunities the committee sees for the rural community in relation to renewable energy. That could include impacts on farm operations, economic opportunities for farm operators, or anything else you uh think would be important for staff to consider. Um, and lastly, we would appreciate any suggestions on who else we should consult with as part of this review. Are there any organizations or or individuals that you think staff should be reaching out to as part of this work? Um we're we're happy to receive feedback on these questions tonight, but we also understand that these are fairly broad questions. So if committee members want to take more time after the meeting, we of uh of course would welcome written feedback. Um, and with that and after lots of talking on my end, I'm happy to open it up for any feedback from the committee. Um, at this point, either on the questions shown here on the slide or if committee members have any questions for staff on what's been presented tonight, we're happy to answer any questions. >> Okay. Thank you, Scott. Any questions or comments, Kathy? Drew, I'll point this question to you because I think you're probably most knowledgeable about it and I never knew a single person who did it. Approximately 15 years ago, we had an individual approach HWFA and they were trying to sell the solar setups and a directional solar uh probably a single unit was going to run about $115,000 I hope installed. Do you recall anyone who did it? And how have they made out with that? It was a 20-year plan. Can you add? >> Yeah, there were quite a few uh people especially in my neck of the woods that uh installed the microfit solar uh trackers. Uh there are they're still operating today and uh that 20-year contract is probably about 3 years out from ending. Three, four years out. Um, so yeah, they've been worthwhile projects, but again, they're they're uh, you know, best situated on the edge of a farm or in a spot where they're not going to impact major operations, that type of thing. And rooftop solar at the same time was a pretty significant push as well. Uh, fit, they had fit contracts and microfit contracts at the same time. That was part of the green energy act that Scott had talked about. and uh those contracts will be coming up for renewal in the next 5 years. >> So I guess my bottom question would be has the installation of the solar unit in fact paid a return such as was promised in the room that night. Was it a satisfactory return? >> I think so. Yeah, they certainly uh they've done well. I have a unit myself and and it's been fine. >> Well, it would be wonderful that no one regretted doing that. However, >> I think we're talking about two different things though. Um, you know, we're talking about back in the day the microfit contracts were smaller units that could be situated kind of anywhere. We're talking in this instance about basically covering farms with solar panels and having another operation underneath them. So, uh, you may have heard of something called Agravaics. Uh, it's an initiative that some folks in Eastern Ontario are pushing around grazing livestock underneath the solar panels. >> Right. >> There's also opportunities, I understand, to have other types of agriculture under these solar panels. my issue, the issue with the Federation of Agriculture and others. And that's why we have um direction from the minister's ministry of energy like we do to the ISO to prohibit ground mount uh solar on prime agricultural land is that once that if it comes to the point where that agricultural operation ceases to exist, all it is at that point is a solar farm and we've lost that land >> to another use. interesting comments and thank you very much. However, I personally have read and talked with a couple of firemen and they really don't even recommend solar on a roof. Thank you, >> Mark. This was uh my motion that came in front of um and I and I and I brought it forward because we do have a farmer in my area who wishes to you know enhance his apple farm with the use of solar panels because the solar panels will uh increase the productivity of the apple of the apple trees and so forth. So that's why this came forward. My question oh first of all before I go into that I'll talk to Kathy. Kathy, my brother-in-law, installed two uh solar panels, and this is separate, uh, in Wilmont County. He paid his his payback of the initial investment, I think, was it's about $70,000 each to install, and he got that back in seven years, and he's been making money whenever the sun shines for the last 13. So, he's done very well with it. Um going back to this um my my philosophy in in moving the city forward in this direction is is that I think we learn by doing and if we just philosophy and just kind of sit around and ponder things we don't really learn anything. So my question is would the city be willing to Scott would the city be willing to allow a pilot project to help with the the learning and the development of the project and not with any long-term commitments? So that kind of restricts Drew's concerns about loss of a loss of that um use in case the prime agricultural stops and then just becomes a solar panel. So our solar panel farm. So, is that is that a possibility that we could possibly look at um just doing a pilot project to help this along? >> Uh through the chair. Uh great question. Um it's that's something I'll have to take back and and discuss with staff. Um, uh, as mentioned, there are, um, it's it's currently not permitted within, um, the rural zones of the of the zoning bylaw, but I'm happy to, uh, take that question back and and get back to you. >> Okay. Thanks so much for that. And, um, we'll take the rest offline. Thanks so much, >> Councelor Clark. >> Thanks, Chair. A question to Scott. Why is it not permitted >> uh through the chair? Uh it's and and I I may uh also call on Alana there, but I'll I'll start. Um in terms of the zoning bylaw, I imagine that it reflects the uh green energy act mentioned earlier. um that uh uh prior to it being repealed, it was a permitted use or it was essentially exempt from uh land use approvals. Uh so there's some updating that's required for our official plans to reflect that that's uh been repealed >> and that's the only rationale that we have so far that prohibits it in the agricultural area. uh through through the chair uh that I'm aware of uh just from an official plan perspective in particular and with the rural Hamilton official plan um it has it's uh uh hasn't been updated in quite some time uh and still reflects those green energy act uh policies. Um so that's that's um part of our understanding of of uh why the policies speak to kind of broad permissions. >> Um is the prohibition just for solar and not wind uh windmills? uh through the chair. Uh no, under the zoning bylaw, it's uh considered private power generation, which would include um any uh electrical energy generation. So that would include wind and uh private power generation is not um a permitted use within any of the rural zones of the zoning bylaw. So then the OPA and the zoning would need to be changed to reflect a permissive use if that's where council wants to go. >> That's correct. The the status quo is that they are um under the zoning bylaw. Renewable energy is not a permitted use within the rural zone. Um following the uh motion from council, we're exploring um policy options and and zoning options for um permissions for renewable energy as a secondary use. If a pilot if a pilot was approached, it would be for a period of time for the whole city in so all rural zones. I I can't see a pilot happening for a specific property is what I'm saying. If you're going to do a pilot, you want to have the breadth of involvement across a larger area so that you get the best data back from that pilot. Doing a pilot on a handful of farms is not going to give you that data. >> Uh through through the chair, uh no uh a fair point. Um a pilot's not something uh that we had considered up until this point. So, we'll need to take it back and and uh uh put some more thought into it. >> Thank you. And if this were to proceed, do we have any information as to how these power generation stations on farms would be funded? They're not cheap to put in. >> Uh through the chair. No, great question. Um these would be privately initiated um installations. Uh so as as mentioned for these smaller scale um uh installations uh the private property owner would be working with the local utility um Electra or Hydro 1. Uh they have programs where um private property owner can make an application for a connection. Um and essentially uh my understanding is that uh they can offset their own electricity demand which can over time pay for the installation. Um or in some cases if they generate more than what they uh require, they can also sell that excess energy back to the grid which would um also help fund the initial upfront capital investment I imagine. Um I think I heard you mention sorry chair to prolong this uh anorobic digestion. Um how prevalent is that in farms in Ontario >> through the chair. Great question and and uh something we're hoping to get a better understanding of through this work. uh as mentioned still early on in the process and just wanted to um identify the wide variety of renewable energy technologies that exist. Uh and we'll be looking at the different types of technology to see what is common, what's feasible, and what makes sense and is appropriate. So, it was mentioned as an option that will be studied in your review, but no decisions have been made on any of this yet. >> That's correct. We're really here at the uh early uh stages of this review. Uh looking for um initial feedback on on the topic broadly. >> Super. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Chair. I'll just chime in there on your question, councelor Clark, about uh digesttors, and it depends on size and scale. Um, typically larger farms are able to support that type of infrastructure on farms and there are um instances across the province where farms are generating natural gas into pipelines and generating power directly off the farm. Thank you, chair. >> Other Yeah. Council McMan. >> Yeah. Through you, chair. Um [clears throat] it's it's kind of tough to see being keen and green um when when you when you jettison the act that was designed to encourage options on farms as if the agricultural farm sector doesn't doesn't care about energy and energy efficiency. I I know anecdotally from some previous experience that in Texas um particularly cattle farmers the the the farm revenue that comes in on on farms. The second leading source of that is is energy from the windmills there. And as you travel, I spent some time in Germany recently. The uh I don't think there was a farm any anywhere that we visited that wasn't wasn't being made operational through the use of creative entrepreneurial use of windmill powers and solar combination. So, it's it's almost almost like you why have why have the discussion unless there's some real potential? I I'm all for options for farmers. You know, we had the argument years ago and farmers couldn't build canoes in the barn because that wasn't an agricultural use. and >> and and fortunately common sense got hold and there were all kinds of ways of supplementing farm incomes to ideally keep people on the farm and earning earning the revenue they need to survive. So I I find this whole discussion kind of u kind of depressing actually. I'm not not here to add a downer. Deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars as Martin Luther King would say, but it's it's it's quite a downer when you see the provincial government moving in this direction. It certainly isn't affirming the Agra sector and and the idea of having options. So for what it's worth, those are my comments. Thank you. >> Other comments, Kathy? >> You can tell Drew I did some homework this afternoon. First of all, I want uh to caution our city before they jump in too grandly. I want them to review the provincial policy statement, PPS, which is the Ontario provincial statement, and it it's the rule above all of us. And what I understand from the PPS is very clear that prime agricultural land and we're blessed with a lot of that in Ontario probably Oxford County being the best. But in this area we're still blessed with a great deal of it of class one two and three land and even some four to seven land if it's judged to be that productive. So I'm just saying according to the PPS only prime agricultural land has a really heavy rule against it and it can only be farmed. It's a food pres producing situation. And the second thing, just in case it gets back to wind power, I want to always suggest that the city does step outside of the box and talk to the farmer who is excellent at what he knows, what he does, how he handles everything in his situation because he's the expert. And I'd love it if you used more experts as being an employee of the city of Hamilton. And I would even encourage that when it comes to business items. But here's a group that went right after [clears throat] another business association that wanted to put windmills in the Glenn Brook area. And Drew, without a doubt, you'll remember these, but I took it upon myself to go to every meeting they held. And this is in fact the Glennbrook wind action group. And this is my information binder and I can assure you that this group was absolutely against the windmills 100%. They have all the reasons for it right here. All the disadvantages, all the cost, all of the taking of good agricultural land. And in fact, in the end, the windmills were totally turned down. So there's a group that knows the experience with windmills. And don't think windmills are what's in my backyard at 16 feet. We're talking 550 ft with blades that could be 50 feet long. You're welcome to borrow the book anytime. >> Thank you, Drew. >> Councelor Clark. Yeah, chair. There's there's only a couple of us around still that that remember all of the discussions about the windmill farms and councelor Brenda Johnson leading the charge to to oppose that. Um uh it doesn't mean that the city doesn't review policies though. I mean that's what transpired back then. It's important that we have that documentation, but we we can't we can't sit back and do nothing when the province is pushing for housing and and policies. Even with the provincial policy statement, I represent Alraa. We're at a hearing at the Ontario Lands Tribunal. the issue of the land being prime agricultural and we've made it very clear seems to be falling on deaf ears when it comes to the province. So they're changing the rules on their own rules as we go through this this um these files. Uh so it it's important that we acknowledge that while there is a provincial policy statement, the province doesn't always abide by it. And I can I can attest to that personally. Thank you. If you don't mind, >> I would just simply suggest that further homework be done with the countries of Spain, Denmark, and France, re windmills. And it was also announced just today on a runner on the television news that we're looking for 10 more nuclear installations for supplying hydro. Thanks, Drew. >> Other comments? >> Germany. >> Oh, Dale. You're muted still, Dale. If you can hear us. Do we have any way to unmute him? >> No. >> No. >> Any other comments in the room before while Dale's unmuting? Drew, I'll just say >> just in consideration of um this because I did bring it forward um at the insist well not the insistence but in I was assisted by a local farmer who's you know just trying to look at new ways of you know making his farm viable because he is a young farmer trying to start out and wants to basically make it a go and understands that any extra revenue that does come in due to this would be helping him uh I guess attain that farm and uh and make it viable. So it's not like it's not like we're saying hey this is going to upset the apple cart and and uh and and be widpread across the area. What we're looking at right now is like can we look at something that's innovative? Can we get rid of the red tape and can we let it let it let it go forward so that we can learn from it and let that be the determining if it works it works. Again, I'm from Glenn Brook, Kathy, and I know that the windmills are right across the road from Westbrook and they're successful and they're integrated and all those concerns from people 20 years ago, even though there there's evidence that you you're showing me from that, I've heard I've had no issues from any of the counselors in Lincoln with with the windmills that are set up there basically right across the street. So, um, again, it's all just matter of perspective. At the time, say 15, 20 years ago, Glenn Brook didn't support it. It's not saying that we shouldn't relook at it at, you know, other energy uses now that could actually be beneficial to the farmers. So, that's my statement and that's why I supported this and that's why I'll continue to support it. And again, it's at a very preliminary stage. We welcome feedback. The staff welcomes feedback and I'm glad that we're here hammering it out right now. So, thanks Kathy. Thank you. Did Dale ever get unmuted? >> It disappeared. His connection is not good. Okay. Any other comments on this? If not, uh, anything else from you, Scott? Go ahead. >> Yeah, through through the chair. Thank you very much. Uh uh maybe I can I I can wrap up and uh provide some further information that may be helpful. If if Dale wants to provide follow-up um uh questions, I'm happy to answer them. So um in terms of next steps, uh staff are continuing our background review and and consultation um where we'll be reviewing best practices and reaching out to uh subject matter experts. will be uh seeking feedback uh from groups like the Ontario Federation of Agriculture uh and the Climate Change Advisory Committee. Uh and then from there, staff will develop policy and zoning options. Um as mentioned, we welcome any additional feedback from committee after tonight's meeting. At this stage, uh we are asking for feedback by July 31st so it can help inform our work. Um, I would also mention if there are any suggestions on folks we should be reaching out to, if those could be provided as as soon as possible to make sure we can capture them in our our consultation, it would be uh greatly appreciated. Um, and so yeah, that concludes my uh presentation. I've included my contact information uh here. If you have any follow-up questions, please don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Scott. Councelor Clark, >> Chair, can I ask are the timelines for feedback, is that just from this committee that you want that feedback or is there going to be broader civic engagement in the rural and agricultural areas of the city? >> Through the chair. Uh, great question. Um, as we're still early in the process, uh, we haven't finalized the approach. Uh, we do have a tight, uh, timeline with the motion requesting, um, staff to report back in Q3 of, uh, 2026. So, it is a a tight timeline. Um but um I'm certainly happy to take that direction back uh to staff um in terms of additional opportunities for for engagement. I'm just simply I understand that there's an election coming. I get that. Um but it it's been my experience in my political life that engaging with the public in the summertime does not usually go over well with the public. They're not around. They got other things to do. They're busy. And so if you're wanting to specifically engage with the rural community on these issues, we have to find the ways to get to those those communities. And and having a a a truncated consultation serves nobody in my humbled opinion. No, through through the chair. I appreciate the the feedback. Okay. Anything else on this? Great. Well, there are opportunities to uh to get your feedback in if you so choose in writing and we appreciate that uh very much. So, can I have a mover and a seconder to receive item 7.2? Well, Payne and Gavin, thank you. Uh, any discussion on that? All in favor? Any opposed? It's carried. Uh, one more item on the agenda. It's 8.1 and it's an amendment to outstanding business. Um, just need a motion, I guess, to approve the fact that uh the farm 911 item has been completed and can be removed from our outstanding business >> Drew >> work. Yes, >> I just have some comments on some questions for staff on that >> on 911. Yeah, go ahead. just um I've had a couple concerns because the regular 911 signs are installed between the property line and the ditch and it seems to me that the um new farm the farm 911 signs are installed actually between the road and the ditch. Is there any reason for that? is uh um because some of the farmers are saying to me things like that that's susceptible to being you know hidden in the snow banks now so forth and then being knocked over by snow plows and so forth as anything [clears throat] with that Tyson or any comments on on why there's different locations between the two. No, great question and through the chair that that's something that I'm not aware of, but I think that given some of the concerns that you've brought forward, I think that that's something that we can either bring back to staff or at least notify staff as to those issues and if there's anything that we can be can be done to correct those and ensure that there's alignment between installation of farm 911 and and other signage as well. >> Okay. Thanks. So then if we pass this as it sits that's okay and then you can take that feedback back and it won't affect it >> uh through the chair. Yes, I believe in into care. I think this is just a administrative in terms of outstanding business item but definitely I think if this committee wants to initiate that those questions or comments to staff I think you can do that here outside of this being removed as an outstanding business item. Okay, we'll just move forward then with that and you've got the direction from myself and I'll follow up. Thanks. >> Sure. Thank you. >> Okay, >> Councelor Clark. Yeah. >> Yeah. Just real quick, Chair, I can support Councelor Tatter. I had several of those green numbered signs from the farm 911 get knocked down by snow plows this past uh winter and so we are um correcting all of that. But it it is an issue >> and I just haven't had the time to pull mine out of the ground and put it where I want it yet. So, >> thanks. >> Yeah, Tyson. >> If I can through the chair, it may if if you want to make this an actual request through the committee to staff, I think just given the fact that there are numerous concerns, I think that might be the best way to ensure that it's identified as an as a request to staff. >> Okay. So, I think I'll move that and councelor Clark will probably back me up on that. Carrie, can you just put the wording that um we review the location of the installation of farm 911 signs um to be possibly installed in the same locations uh or considering as 911 green signs? And through the chair, I can probably add around just um the committee just requesting further clarification on uh impacts of snow plow and and snow removal on the farm 911 signage just to ensure that the signs are installed so they don't are removed through snow plowing or any other city requirements. >> Grass cutting. >> Grass cutting. Exactly. >> I'll second it. >> So we got a motion there. C seconded by councelor clerk. Any other discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? It's carried. We still need a motion to remove the other item. Okay. And we still need a motion to remove the original firearm 911 item from the outstanding business. Councelor Tatterson. Is there a seconder? Uh McMin. >> Who was Oh, councelor McMin. Thank you. Any discussion Freeman? >> Uh, yep. >> There. My question is, uh, was it all done voluntarily or did the city go out and, uh, make sure every entrance got a number? >> Well, you had to apply uh, for the number for your property. >> Then it's not a full system then. It's only voluntary. You're going to miss a whole bunch and you wait. Sometime they're going to be in a an accident and somebody will be in trouble. It needs to be beyond voluntary. Sorry, but that's my comment. Okay. Any other discussion? All in favor of the motion? Any opposed? One. And that's carried. Thank you very much. We have uh come to the last item on the agenda which is adjournment. Uh so there being no further business, this meeting is now adjourned at 8:32. >> Okay.